Episode 21

Shane Mercer [00:00:11]:

Back to another episode of Behind the Lines. I'm your host Shane Mercer, and that guy over there, Andrew Pace, the founder of inplayLIVE, the most sophisticated sports betting community on planet Earth. And if you want to join inplayLIVE, we have a special promo code for for you that is 'BEHINDTHELINES' all caps. You'll get the very best pricing to sort of see what it's like on the inside of inplayLIVE. And I am telling you, it is absolutely worth it. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I've also got to remind you to, like, download, subscribe, follow us on all the socials at inplayLIVE and contact us if you've got a betting story to share, please share it with us. Write it in the comments section below. We will follow up with you and we would love to chat. All right, Pace, with that, today we are talking about rewards programs. And for all of you out there listening, this is a two part episode. We're going to, one, talk about how they work and then next week, you're definitely going to want to tune in when we talk about how to take advantage of them and ways people have taken advantage of them. But before we can do that, we got to talk about how these rewards programs work. And Pace, you're definitely more of an expert on this than I am because my experience with rewards programs is very limited in life generally. I think the only rewards program I have ever used is with air miles. All right, so that is probably it for my experience with rewards programs. I got an air miles card when I was like 18 years old and I think there was like a kiosk at the college and they're like, hey, sign up, it's free. Take this air miles card. And then I started using it to buy whenever I bought booze and gas. And that's probably it. And then that's kind of my experience with rewards programs and I have never cashed in any of those air miles. I still have the card, I still use it. I have no clue how many miles are on that card. I know that air miles went through this whole process a couple of years ago where they were talking about maybe eliminating it if you never cashed in on them. I don't even know if my air miles are still valid. That is the extent of my experience with rewards programs generally. Pace, how about you?

Andrew Pace [00:02:19]:

Well, first of all, it sounds like you were buying your gas at the shell.

Shane Mercer [00:02:26]:

Most of the time.

Andrew Pace [00:02:28]:

Well, I like that you actually brought it in with a context of not betting or not gambling, because the immediate reaction on this show is we're talking about sports betting. But I think with rewards programs in general, we're also talking about casinos and just the structure of the whole system and how that entices players to continue to play. And it's actually really interesting because when you gamify the world and we can talk about that a little bit more in a second, it almost justifies your losses by your tier status. So you don't focus on how much you won or lost, in most cases, how much you lost. You focus on the fact that you just reached a new tier and it's almost like an accomplishment because a lot of this has been gamified. There's a lot of studies and psychology behind that kind of thing, which is really cool. But like I said, I like that you brought in air miles because companies use incentive programs like crazy and you ask yourself why do they do that? And it's because they work. You get people that will only buy gas at the Shell because that's where the air miles are actually sort of collected at the highest regard. And maybe if you have the air miles card with the air miles credit card, you'll also get some sort of multiplication on top of buying gas from a different establishment. You buy it at the Shell and it'll amplify those points which of course lead to a whole series of potential rewards and purchases for you down the road. But the big thing that a lot of people don't know as to why companies will sign up for different programs and reward systems and all that kind of thing is actually data. So there are very few grocery stores that I know of that don't have some sort of either membership like costco associated with it, where every time you're at the till you're scanning your card or if you don't need a membership, they try to incentivize you like oh, are you a member of our rewards program? Would you like to sign up? You get A, B and C and they might actually be genuinely giving you something right off the bat, some sort of bit of cash towards your purchase or whatever the case may be. And it's because it's an investment by the company to collect that data on you that gets them better. Knowing their customer, so that they can advertise to you better, so that they can stock their shelves, catered towards the best trends associated with the people in your area. Keep you looped into that particular grocery store. Watch your patterns of where you're buying, when you're buying, if you've stopped buying, and what sort of pattern that might be associated with, and so on and so forth. So even though they are giving you some sort of incentive in those situations, what they're gaining is really invaluable market research, which is just incredibly powerful.

Shane Mercer [00:05:25]:

Yeah, no, I love that you brought that up. A lot of companies, corporations out there it's all about collecting big data right now. Really getting to know your customer at that granular level where you know you could sort of discern all of their day to day habits based on how they spend their money and where they're spending it and what they're buying and all of those things. So I think it's sort of a fascinating space right now and especially when we talk about advanced technology and AI and its ability to kind of collect and analyze that big data and these big corporations are heavily investing in that kind of thing. So let's talk about it then how it applies in the world of sports betting and the sports books. They've got a ton of rewards programs. They're also very interested in knowing their customers knowing their customers behaviors and how to perhaps target those customers or even, as we've talked about a lot on the show eliminate those winning customers. Customers like you, right? Pace?

Andrew Pace [00:06:29]:

Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. I mean, in context of sports betting, I think it's actually pretty interesting because that brings back sort of the pre legalization, post legalization discussion. And I can remember obviously using a series of different sports books before New Jersey legalized in 2018 and there was a few especially something relating to crypto where you'd go wow, this bonus is pretty hefty. Usually it came with a pretty significant rollover so you had to wager 15 or 20 or in some cases even 50 X that bonus amount to actually unlock those funds. And essentially it's sort of a needle in a haystack type thing where in order for the average bettor to actually get through their rollover and receive those funds in the form of cash was actually quite difficult to do. But in general the bonuses and the reward structures were really small like a lot of $5 free bets and things that for someone who's betting in the hundreds of dollars or higher seemed largely insignificant and post legalization, I was stunned. I truly was stunned. And the reason was because the bonuses that I was seeing being offered in the competitive space of trying to be the first to market and gain the most customers and like we've touched on before in previous episodes have the largest handle as legalization came into play especially with a lot of these companies already being publicly traded. So take MGM, a massive, massive entertainment and hospitality organization that now has an online presence versus a DraftKings who's just gone public and didn't have the previous market cap of some of these other companies and watching the two compete against each other and their method of competition being their rewards programs being their bonus structures. And then me sitting there as a sports bettor going oh my God, they're treating people better than if they were playing table games at the casino in an arena that you can win in much more effectively. And that's where I was like, wow, this is freaking nuts. I cannot believe what these players are being offered even if they were winning at the time, which was nuts.

Shane Mercer [00:09:07]:

And so what are we talking about here? Are we talking about $100 free bet or $100 bonus bet depending on the terminology they're using. Or is it even more than that, $1,000?

Andrew Pace [00:09:18]:

Well, we're going to have Kenny on next week with respect to how we can milk some of these opportunities. But right out of the hop in New Jersey and then quickly after that Pennsylvania. Not only was the player getting a 3000 ish level bonus upon sign up but the person who signed them up was getting a fat bonus or commission as well because their whole mindset was spend to gain a customer regardless of the break even point. And I can assure you we saw their earnings, they were posted, they were not breaking even, they were losing because of how big these bonus structures were. So what it really did during that particular time and this is kind of not necessarily discussing the reward systems but more so, what was being offered to the player. It was remarkable and sort of what we've alluded to in previous episodes. A real opportunity for these players if they were sharp, to make incredible money early on.

Shane Mercer [00:10:24]:

Right? Yeah. And you talked about the referrals. You're talking about friend referrals, right? So I sign up for a sports book and then I refer you, right, Pace? And then you go and sign up and I get some money for it.

Andrew Pace [00:10:35]:

Yeah, sure. But I mean also they had some affiliate related deals where maybe you had a business card or something like that. Let's just paint a picture here. Let's say you own a bar and you would get every bartender just passing out this code to joint DraftKings. You get a free $1,000 or whatever the case may be. And then the bar was cashing in on a bunch of commission on top of it as well. They were really spending. Really spending.

Shane Mercer [00:11:00]:

Right. So now it's a situation though. So now they've got the customers in, right? They've built up this customer base but they want to keep them loyal. Right? FanDuel wants to keep their players at FanDuel and stop them from going over to DraftKings. And so they're doing that by sort of incentivizing them to continue wagering with their platform, with their company. And they're using I don't know if it's bonus bets, free bets or even in some cases merchandise and things that you'll get sent to you because you've wagered a certain amount of money. But does it sort of apply whether you're winning or losing?

Andrew Pace [00:11:44]:

Right, yeah, I think that's a good question. I think one of the big things that people have to understand is if we rewind the tapes here and we go paper slip betting. So what I'm referring to is where you walk up to a kiosk, you drop down a stack of cash whether it's $10 or $10,000, to place a wager on the game and then you walk away from that till with a physical ticket in your hand. If you lose that physical ticket, you do not get paid if that bet wins. There is complete sort of it's like Harry Potter with his cloak. It's completely anonymous. If you don't have a reward system associated with that way of betting, and similar to that, let's say you go sit down at a blackjack table and a bunch of people drop down their rewards cards in Vegas or wherever the case may be. Then I come and sit down and they ask me for my player's card, and I say, I don't have one. They don't deny you access. So from the standpoint of that data and information about each player that's playing with them, these systems were put in place to reward and incentivize gamblers for their loyalty at any one given institution. But then, like I said, also collect data on them, but then also to put a name to the face of that person that's playing so that they did know who you were, if you were the person coming in and dropping cash at the sports book or on the tables. So fast forward to an online betting landscape. There are obviously all these verification processes that occur where, reward system aside, if they didn't exist at all, they still know who you are versus this other landscape where they actually don't know who they are. And this is their method to track you where you go, hey, I'm placing this $10,000 wager at the desk. This actually has a lot of incentive behind it, this $10,000 wager. Win or lose, I'm going to get some sort of perk from this. I might get a free hotel room. I might get a discounted hotel room. I might get free play where I get a certain amount of wagers in the casino for making this particular bet. I might get a free dinner tonight, I might get some free drinks. The list goes on and on and on. So you go, I want this my player's card. I want them to know that this is me so that I'm getting credit for this wager. And it almost puts a cause to the bet itself, because you're building that status with that resort and this world that we live in. Loves, loves status. And Vegas in particular, years ago, just mastered this whole system of keeping you betting and building your tiers and building your tier level with them so that you could flash your card so that you could beat a cab. Line so that you could beat a line at a nightclub, so that you could get free room, so that you could get picked up in a limo from the airport and brought straight to your suite. They mastered it and they've been doing it for decades.

Shane Mercer [00:15:04]:

Man, all of that stuff sounds awesome, right? For the average direct vetter out there, yeah, why wouldn't I do this? Why wouldn't I get involved? Jeez, they're going to treat me like a king. Come on. I guess that's the whole, but you need to have a certain amount of bankroll to keep betting, to keep getting those things. But they do. They make you feel great, right? They make you feel like a real somebody in a place that's filled with very important people, right?

Andrew Pace [00:15:38]:

And I think, like going back to Vegas as an example, if you go play blackjack in a lot of different states, a lot of different casinos around North America, at least there are probably more provinces and states that will not offer you free beverages while you play. So Vegas, everyone's like, oh, you go gamble and you drink for free. Just go put $10 in a slot machine and wait for the cocktail waitress to come by and you're breaking even because even if you lose, that's what you would have paid to get the drink. So you hear these stories and they get just absolutely bombarded through the people that are all turning 21, able to go to Vegas, where you go, oh my God, that's so cool. And of course, the reality of the landscape that you then enter is that you tend not to break even, right? But they do such a good job of looping you in, getting you signed up so that they get that data and information on you and then putting this gamified sort of cause associated with the betting that you're doing. You get this blue card to start and you go, hey, you already are getting these discounts just because you signed up. And again, they're getting that data on you. So that's why they're willing to offer you something for that because that helps them become a better business. And then you spend a little bit of money and you play a little bit and boom, you're rewarded. Your tier status jumps up to that white card and you go get it printed and you have this new color and you're like, oh my God, this is so cool. And then you look at the perks and you go, oh, my discount on hotels is quite a bit higher now. Wow, we can come back and it's not going to cost us the same amount of money. And oh, we get a discount at this shop over here. Let's go make sure that we spend our money there, et cetera, et cetera, right? And before you know it, the year rolls around and if you didn't go back, you get a notification saying that your tier status is going to be reset back to that ugly blue card. So people will be like, oh, I don't want to lose my tier status. We were at the Vegas golden Knights game and right in front of us there was a conversation going down with a family and they actually got into not a fight, but a little bit of a heated discussion. And the discussion ended with, but then we might lose our tear status. We have to come back. And when I observe these things. I go, Holy smokes. Like, as cool as this system is and as much as it works, it's like, look at how much they've gotten these customers. Like, they've got them gripped, they've got them hooked. And obviously things just go up and up from there where the greater the status that you have, like I said, free bets, free play, free meals, free rooms, limos to and from the casino, and they make money off of you net of that. I've been exposed to people that have had I've seen as high as $5,000 in free play. And I'm sure when I say that, people will probably think like, oh, I've seen way higher than that because there's always that higher level. But I'm talking about people that I've actually been with where you get $5,000 in free play to come to Vegas on top of a free suite and a free limo ride and potentially a flight credit. So you get this offer, you're sitting at home, wherever it is that you are, and you literally are like, how do I not go to Vegas? This is incredible. But that particular customer, they know that that $5,000 free play, all the costs associated with cleaning the room that you're staying in, the opportunity cost of that room, which, of course, is someone else booking it at the rate, as opposed to for free, all the meals that they're going to pick up for that player while they're there. They are gambling on their knowledge of that player, knowing how much he or she will play while they're there. And that net of all of those things that I just said, they will turn a significant profit off of a person's play.

Shane Mercer [00:19:44]:

So what you're saying is all of those things, the free hotel room, the free meal, the free booze, the free limo service, all of that awesome stuff that you're getting for free, the free play, the free $5,000, none of it is actually free, and chances are you are losing money long term.

Andrew Pace [00:20:03]:

Well, let's just say for whatever reason, you went to Vegas and you took them up on all these offers and you can win. It's possible. But let's say that you just used the free play and you stopped right there and you milk them for the room and the flight and all the meals, you milk them for that. On one trip, you maybe can get one of those out of them, and then it's all going to stop really quickly.

Shane Mercer [00:20:33]:

You're losing that status.

Andrew Pace [00:20:35]:

Even if you won on the trip and did really well, they want you back even sooner now because they've seen your patterns and they know that they're going to get you long term. So it's definitely a smart system. It resets each year, and I have always enjoyed my rewards in Las Vegas. I'm actually going tomorrow. So you want to talk about a sucker? It's a buddy stag of mine, and I've gotten comped rooms for all six guys in individual rooms themselves through myself and Raj. We play a little bit in the casino, we play recreationally and we know we're going to lose our money when we're down there, but they love that gamble on a group of guys coming in that they're going to hopefully make some money off of. But I guess for me is I've always really enjoyed those perks. So as much as I laugh about it and make fun of it, like you said, you're like that? Sounds awesome. I've enjoyed those perks. I think they're great. I love going to Vegas. I think it's a great place to have fun for a very short period of time and then you get the hell out of there. But really where this all kind of transitions is how shocked I was to see not just like using MGM in Vegas as a very specific example, a reward system that exists for table, casino players and slot players transfer over to sports betting, literally one for one. And when we're live betting, you know, the volume that we're wagering at Shane, it can sometimes be 20 bets in one game and then there can be ten or 50 or 100 games on at once and we're wagering a good handful of those. So we're talking about potentially hundreds of wagers in a day where we look at our balances. At the end of the day, we might have a tough day and be down a little bit, but more often than not, with the group that we're on, we do win over the long term. So a positive balance in your account where now you're getting this same level of rewards for sports betting as these other guys are doing with table and slot games. So a lot of this has obviously changed now, but then obviously you have guys coming in with incredible status and they're getting comps and limo rides and free cruises and you name it, all being offered to them through these reward systems which are being ironed out in a lot of ways with respect to this. But winners were getting the losing Vegas treatment and unfortunately living in BC, I didn't get access to a lot of that kind of thing. But my God, it was a bit of a gold rush for the sharp bettor, that's for sure.

Shane Mercer [00:23:24]:

Well, I got to ask you then because you're saying it was and past tense and so it sounds like the well is drying up a bit.

Andrew Pace [00:23:35]:

I would say just with respect to rewards in particular, you're probably not going to get this casino losing treatment as a winning sports bettor. Has it happened still and are there ways to milk it? Absolutely, which is obviously a great segue into next week, but it is not as easy as it was in those early days. The flip side to all of this though, Shane, is like, I actually sent you this screenshot recently. This is kind of the stuff that I was used to, sports betting. This is now like a third or fourth reminder email from a sports book that I got. And they finally go, hey, Pace, are you throwing $40 away? As if I literally walked over $220 bills sitting on the sidewalk. And it goes, this is our final reminder to let you know about the promotion that we've customized and prepared for you. Don't miss this opportunity. Make sure to get this extra free money today. Make a deposit now and receive bonus funds of $40. And I probably would assume that the first three emails that I got, I just delete, delete, delete, delete, right? And then I scroll down in the email and it's full terms and conditions, max bonus, $40, rollover requirement, 15 x. And then it's like, no live wagering allowed, like all these conditions, and you go, you're telling me that I'm throwing $40 away and this is how reward systems and bonuses actually work. So we laugh about it a little bit and go, we're winning bettors, and look at what we can get, and look at these amazing sort of promotions and bonuses that we have access to. But to the recreational or unexperienced player that tagline, are you really going to leave $40? Are you really going to not take this free money that might make a recreational bettor go, oh my God, and maybe someone that's also a bit of a problem player that hasn't self excluded from that particular site where they go, how do I not take this $40? It's free money. You don't read the terms and conditions, and then you're back in their system and ultimately these reward systems and this gamification like I've alluded to the whole idea of it is if you leave Vegas, if you leave the sports book. If you leave whatever reward system with empty pockets, you have a shinier card, you have the next opportunity, which is going to be maybe next time, instead of $40, it might be $50. Maybe next time, instead of a discounted room, it's a comp room. And you feel as though you've made progress towards a goal that you didn't even know that you were trying to accomplish. And you're in that system and you are being bombarded to continually lose. And then obviously the year rolls over and you lose your status and your gut will say, oh my god, I got to get my status back. And they have little tricks with that, too. Like, they might extend your status for a few months, but you need to come now to keep it. So they definitely know what they're doing with respect to the stuff. Otherwise, obviously we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it.

Shane Mercer [00:27:01]:

Yeah, and some of these companies, like you've mentioned, they've been operating in Vegas for decades and decades, MGM, Caesars, right? And now they're just taking that knowledge of how they know these reward programs work and just applying it in the digital space, right. So they've sort of already fine tuned it in real life, so to speak, and now they are able to take those same strategies and concepts and use them in the digital world. And I love that example that you talk about there with the sports book emailing you over and over again saying, hey, you're $40, you're going to lose it. But I think you needed to deposit $100 and then you had to roll that over like you said something like 15 times or something like that just to get this $40 that they're saying is free that you could be leaving behind and to the recreational sports bettor. Yeah, all they see is the headline in the email, $43. And if there was a chance that they were planning to make a wager that day anyway on a sport that they're watching right now, maybe they're a baseball fan and they were planning to bet on a baseball team. Tonight. So they're thinking, hey, well, if I was going to make this wager anyway, why don't I just put $100 in this account, get my 40 free dollars and go ahead and make my play? And then they realize, wait a minute, this isn't working out the way I thought it was going to work out. And now, like you said, the sports book has your money in there already, you've already made that deposit, chances are you're going to lose it over time and you're never going to see that free $40 that they claimed to be offering in the first place.

Andrew Pace [00:28:33]:

Totally. And I mean, my experience oftentimes is, aside from Vegas and a few other reward systems that I've seen, my experience is with a lot of the offshore sports books just because I am in British Columbia and I have a pretty crazy story from last week. So one of my strategies, and this is a great tip for anyone that is a sports bettor that has struggled with limits, which is an ongoing battle, obviously, Shane, we bring that up. I think every episode it comes up almost every week. Yeah, there's some sort of touch on being limited. So I like to lose in a sports book to establish myself as a good customer. Right. And I got reached out last week by a VIP host from a particular sports book that I will leave anonymous for the sake of this episode at least. And he said to me like, hey, Andrew, I came across your account and noticed that you haven't played with us for a little while and we also noticed your play and want to make sure that you were at the top of the list for anything to do with feedback with our site. So you have a direct line to me now where you can essentially tell me how your experience is and we'll make sure that we're continually working to better our sports book. Based on the information that you give us, aka you've lost a lot of money through us, and we want to keep you happy. You're making friends. He then said, I noticed that you haven't used any bonuses on our site that you have available to you, and if you click on your account, there's a whole series of bonuses available for you for your next deposit. And at the time, I kind of was like, okay, cool. I've kind of hit a good status with these guys. I'm probably ready to rake them through the coals pretty soon here. But usually if I didn't accept the bonus, it's because the terms are terrible, because I'll take a good bonus if I think that I can turn that into cold, hard cash in a pretty quick and efficient manner. So I'm like, if I passed on the bonus, probably isn't a great bonus. So he goes on to say, on top of this, I've created a custom bonus for you for the next time that you deposit. But he didn't tell me any of the details of it. He said, So when you're going to deposit next, please reach out to me, and I will apply that to your account and to your bonus. So I responded, and I'm like, hey, man, thanks so much. That's really awesome to hear. I'm glad you're open to my feedback. Just kind of milking it a little bit, and then said, yeah, I'd love to hear the terms of the bonus. And then he goes on to say, like, our bonuses are different than any other site that you'll ever see. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're prepared to offer you 100% up to a couple of I'm like, sweet, this is awesome, because I don't get those kind of bonuses very often. So I was like, okay, this is cool. And then I said, can I please just understand the terms and conditions of the bonus? And then he responds, and he's like, the minimum OD that this can be placed at is 1.7. Every single wager must be made pregame. There is a 25 X rollover of your $2,000. But then this was the crazy one. I'd never seen this before. This particular sports book operated with cryptocurrencies where you actually hold the cryptocurrency in the account. So there's some sports books where you deposit a cryptocurrency into the site, and then it turns into Fiat, so USD or CAD or the Euro. Once you're in the sports book, it's no longer in a cryptocurrency. Whereas this particular book, if you deposit in bitcoin, you actually wager in bitcoin. So then, attached to the bonus terms and condition, it said, there is a maximum rollover amount applied to your rollover per wager of ten micro bitcoins. So the ten micro bitcoins are essentially one 100th of a bitcoin. So that means that if I place a $10,000 wager, roughly only 300 of it went towards my rollover. So I've never seen that before where when you're rolling your money over, only a certain amount can actually be applied to that rollover. And I was like, I puked when I read it. And I was like, I'm so glad that you guys are open to my feedback because this bonus is awful. I will not be accepting this. Get ready for this. A couple of days later, I get an email that says, your deposit has been approved. I didn't deposit, but it's an automated email when money has been added to your account that you get. So if you go to deposit to any sports book, oftentimes you'll get an email that says, we've got your deposit. You get an email like, congrats, you're ready to play? So I never deposited into the site. I get an email that says, your deposit has been approved. Your deposit of 55 mBTC has been confirmed and credited to your account balance. Have a nice day. Meanwhile, it's the bonus, but I didn't deposit because they felt like I'm a good customer, and they didn't wait for me deposit to give it to me anyways. So I haven't reached out to them. So this is something that we can follow up on next week.

Shane Mercer [00:33:53]:

Yeah, I'm interested to hear where this goes.

Andrew Pace [00:33:56]:

Yeah. So is this cash? Is this crazy rollover that's only pregame? And then here's the real question. Let's say I do have money in this account, and let's say I start winning and they limit me. What is this going to do as it relates to me withdrawing? Am I going to be able to pull my funds, or am I going to have to roll all this stuff over that they just put in my account unwillingly? So it could be a great story where I got free money, or it could be just another one of these traps that we obviously refer to on this podcast on a regular basis. So I guess the message regulated or not, read the terms and conditions and understand these reward systems, understand what they're designed for you to do so that you don't fall into any traps. And believe it or not, there are situations where getting free money can actually be a bad thing as it relates to this kind of stuff, even for a winning player, let alone someone who actually has a problem, that it loops them into sort of a continuous habit of gambling.

Shane Mercer [00:35:04]:

It sounds to me like that's what they're hoping is that you are a problem gambler. This is what it sounds like that they're banking on you being a problem gambler. You're going to go in there, you're going to place those wagers, and they're going to sort of pull you right back into their system by sort of just giving you that free money. And imagine, right, you are a problem gambler. And all of a sudden you've got this free money deposited into this account, right? You're going to jump all over that and you're not going to read the terms and conditions, you're not going to go through all the fine print, you're not going to have that conversation with the sports book or the representatives or whoever it is that you're talking to. You're just going to go and you're going to start making your wagers. I'm also thinking too Pace, the sports book probably should have caught on that you're not a losing bettor just by the simple fact that you did read the terms and conditions and rejected their bonus. So that should have been a flag for them, I would think.

Andrew Pace [00:36:02]:

Yeah, I think there would be recreational losing players that would read the terms and conditions. I think those players do exist, but I think in general most players would just accept the bonus and think that it is some sort of free money because when you go to zero that money is gone and it isn't like there's this well, in some books there actually are. So you go to zero and there's still a looming bonus that you have to roll over, but in a lot of cases when you go to zero it just all disappears. So a lot of bettors don't actually notice that all these requirements are associated with their bonus because they never actually got to the point of successfully rolling the money over with a balance. So that's why this can be a bit of a fool's errand with respect to these rollovers. And again, a lot of this is not the regulated market. I don't know of any regulated books with these 20 X rollovers. Personally I've definitely seen rollover, but usually it's one or two X or things like that with the regulated books. But I guess what I'm saying is with respect to the reward system overall, regulated or not, these systems are in place all across the industry. There's actually Shane, there's one we haven't touched on yet and that's like a point system. All of them have some sort of point system because you're building over time and then you hit the next tier level. It's like you need 25,000 more points to hit gold or platinum or noir or x or whatever it is. But it's just a point system where you actually build points and there's a lot of offshores that have this like cloud bet and bookmaker, but then like DraftKings is huge on their points and you build up these DK dollars, right? I don't have personal experience with that at all, but perhaps you do, Shane.

Shane Mercer [00:37:58]:

Yeah, I've got a DK account and yeah, building up the crowns is a thing, right? You want to stack up these crowns and then I think at the end of the year or something, you can cash in your crowns and get products mailed to you. Sometimes they're really sort of expensive products, but a lot of times it seems like, and I haven't even cashed mine in yet, I've just been stacking my crowns, so to speak, and just kind of waiting on it. But, yeah, towards the end of this year, I'm going to sort of see what I can do with them, maybe around Christmas time, see what I can get. But I think a lot of it is just sort of swag stuff. But I have heard of people getting some fairly decent gifts, items, prizes, whatever you want to call them for cashing in their crown. So, yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to it. We'll see what we get coming the end of the year.

Andrew Pace [00:38:48]:

And that's a really good point. You said it right at the beginning, that sounds awesome. What? You just said it's like, that sounds awesome. There are benefits to this, obviously, which we can really dive into next week, especially with Kenny here, who there's a difference between going, hey, that's awesome, and hey, how can I milk this for every single possible penny? To add this to my overall edge against the books and add this to my overall profits against the books, which is obviously really exciting, but you actually just touched on something that's pretty important as well. And that is it's mostly swag. Do you want to rock some DraftKing swag or do you want to do maybe they give you a really cooler or blanket or I've seen like scotch glasses and they've got the logo on them, right. And if I received something like that, I'd be like, okay, that's cool, but the next time I pour Scotch with my buddies, they all get handed a DraftKings cup and what do they do? They go, oh, these are nice. Where'd you get these? Oh, I got them from DraftKings for my sports betting play. That market, the marketing there is incredible right?

Shane Mercer [00:39:56]:

It's just a bunch of free advertising. Absolutely.

Andrew Pace [00:39:58]:

Yeah. It's a total win win. So they gave you something that you're actually using. They gave you some swag that they believe to be relevant to their customer base based on the data of who you are. They know who you are, they know what you like, they know the types of things you bet on. They know more about you than you might know about yourself with all the AI and ability for your phones to listen and see you and everything, they know you right. So you get this gift that you like, which is a win. That's great. Cool. That's awesome. Then they're getting just this crazy marketing from it because they know that they're giving you something that's probably going to be put to use in the right situation. So really smart. Like a lot of the things that we've touched on, it's designed for us to benefit, yes, in certain circumstances, but ultimately, even if we benefit, what they're gaining from it is pretty powerful stuff. Shane I do have something that is an amazing point or tip for everyone as it relates to any type of points that accumulate in your account. Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. So because of my background as a winning bettor and because of the fact that I have kind of come from this landscape where the rewards have kind of sucked, they really have, I've learned to ignore them over time. And when we started inplayLIVE, I really started to see people really focused on these rewards, which was for a good reason. They were adding it to their edge, much like I just touched on. So I was not so worried about a bonus that I maybe could have rolled over and turned to cash. So a good bonus. I was maybe not so worried about the points in my account. But what I did once we found inplayLIVE and I started to see this being such a powerful way to gain a little bit of extra dollars is going back through some old accounts and seeing what I did have available in those accounts and a lot of them was nothing, right? But there would be a few accounts where I had accumulated potentially tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of their points or currency and then they'd have some sort of conversion store or some sort of way to use those points or those, like you said, DK dollars. So some sort of way to use them. And I'd go in to use them and I would see the point balance. And there were times where I'd be like, oh my God, $50 cash. I can buy 20 of those. I can buy 50 of those. Oh, this is amazing. And I go to buy them and it says reward transactions have been blocked on this account. So I lost the ability to use my rewards because I had been limited and I didn't even know that they were there. Bookmaker was a really good example of where I had a very serious amount of points accumulated. And they let winners continue to play there, which is awesome, but they will lock up your rewards points so missed out on some free money there. So the advice with respect to that is some sites, they'll let you use those points after you've been limited. But for the ones that don't, or just for any site in general, don't be afraid to use them as you go, because it's better to use them than to have not, right?

Shane Mercer [00:43:31]:

And using them too doesn't, it sort of helps make you look like a good customer, right? Because hey, this is somebody who is trying to use their bonuses. They are sort of taking advantage of our rewards program. They're kind of playing the game with us, right?

Andrew Pace [00:43:46]:

Yeah, I think that's probably a pretty good point. It would be kind of crazy to not. So I could see why those sites maybe could have used that as another reason to be like hey, why isn't this guy accepting this bonus like you said? Right?

Shane Mercer [00:44:02]:

Right. It's a tip off, right? Like, hey, they know something or they're reading our fine print and they know that this bonus might not be good for them, right?

Andrew Pace [00:44:11]:

Yeah, exactly.

Shane Mercer [00:44:12]:

Well, really looking forward to next week where we do bring on the golden Goose Kenny, who we've had on the show before. And man, that guy's got stories for days, years even. But he is going to help us sort of understand how to kind of milk these reward systems, get the most out of them, squeeze that juice out of these systems because, man, that guy is a pro at it. So really looking forward to that. That is next week. You won't want to miss that. We've talked about how these reward systems work here on this episode. Now that you understand how they work. Next week we talk about how to take advantage. And I'm really looking forward to that because I know myself. I could probably use a few tips on that side of things for sure, because I've got a whole bunch of these sports books, too, and some of them are in very good standing. And I have collected a bunch of their rewards points, DK, crowns, dollars, fan, dual bucks, all these different things. And yeah, I don't really know though, exactly how am I supposed to get the most out of this while maintaining my good status with the book, at least for you. Yeah, looking forward to that conversation. So that's next week, right? Pace, anything else to add before we say goodbye?

Andrew Pace [00:45:22]:

Let's kill it.

Shane Mercer [00:45:24]:

All right, buddy, till next week. Keep beating those books and really looking forward to that episode and having the golden goose on. All right, folks, till then, stay tuned. Join us next week. Peace out. Thanks for tuning into another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or want to be featured on our podcast, drop a note in the comments below. And if you want to join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.