Episode 46

Rob | PowerPlay [00:00:00]:

And and fair play. I wish I wish I was good enough to get limited, but I'm I'm just not you know, I'm just not feeling. It's one of it's one of my ambitions in life to be limited by sports book, but unfortunately, it's something that's never happened to me. So yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:00:25]:

Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of Behind the Lines in 2024, the only Podcast purifying the sports betting industry. No picks. No predictions. No crystal balls. A lot of education, a lot of tools, A lot of strategies to make responsible betting decisions. I'm your host, Shane Mercer. That guy over there, Andrew Pace, the founder of inplayLIVE, the most sophisticated sports betting community on planet Earth. And if you wanna see what it's all about on the inside, we got a promo code for you that is 'BEHINDTHELINES', all caps.

Shane Mercer [00:01:02]:

Us. Alright, Pace. Welcome to the new year. Happy new year to you, my friend. And wowsers, do we have a show for you today? I am very excited about this show. We've got 2 executives from a sportsbook, Powerplay. We'll get to them in a minute. Very, very, fruitful, conversation, contentious at times.

Shane Mercer [00:01:23]:

Certainly some some tense moments in there, but, an excellent, conversation nonetheless that I think both recreational sports bettors and people like yourself, Pace, who had been in this game for a long, long time will, find some value in. So that. That is coming up for you in just a few minutes. But first, PACE, I want to ask you about your holidays. How did your sports betting go over the holidays? Us. We we had a nice little break. It's been a while since we chatted.

Andrew Pace [00:01:49]:

Yeah. Well, I think our last episode, we gave a little caveat on what to look out for during bowl season, and I think that that was a very fairly, positioned discussion given the results that have now come in. So I think that as a general message, betting throughout the holidays and bowl season, but also betting as a whole. Look out for those traps that get set for For many, many public bettors, it's interesting. I came across a reel on Instagram that had serious virality, so, you know, hundreds of thousands of views of why Ohio State will beat Missouri and this guy putting his whole reputation that one pick, and it was I I basically posted below that that, reel saying what I said on the podcast. You know, this is this is precisely what the sportsbooks want you to think in this spot when and I well, I'm not I'm not claiming Missouri's gonna win that game. I have no clue who's gonna win, but that was it was nice to see that story line come into fruition, like, exactly how the sportsbooks want you to think about that game. And, yeah, people got bit hard.

Andrew Pace [00:03:01]:

Not only that. When we first talked about that game, the line Missouri was favored because the books knew. They knew that they should be favorited in that game, and the line just moved Ohio State's way day in, day out right up to kickoff. I think it ended up, like, minus 5, and, of course, they they scored a field goal in the entire game. That was it. So, look out for those traps, guys.

Shane Mercer [00:03:25]:

Yeah. They're they're they're out there. There's lots of them out there. And, you can learn how to spot them, you know, by by, you know, joining our community and and kinda learning as you go. You know, it was, I I'm I'm very lucky, to have completed a full calendar year in the inplayLIVE community. 2023 was my sort of first full year. It was excellent, and, I was able to to celebrate that my success and and share my success with my family by, surprising them at Christmas with an all inclusive vacation, to a Caribbean island. And, that was that was really nice to

Andrew Pace [00:03:59]:

be able to to do something. Man.

Shane Mercer [00:04:02]:

You know, just so that they could see the the fruits of my labor because, you know, they see me working at it. Right? And and, you know, it's taking time away from them at times, and, you know, some sacrifices are are made, but this was a really kind of nice way to surprise them. And what an awesome time that was. One thing, though, a lesson learned while on vacation. While on vacation, you should be on vacation. And so, you know, I was I I thought, oh, you know what? I'll I'll use some in play life strategies, some stuff that I use on a regular basis to build my bankroll. Oh, I'll I'll just do a little poolside bedding. You know? I'll I'll even you know, I'll I'll just hit this for a little bit over here, you know, at the beach, and, know? I'll just tune in a little bit here and there.

Shane Mercer [00:04:40]:

And, you know, anything away this was something that I learned. Anything away from my sports betting setup, I have to treat and look at as a recreational sportsman. Anything that that isn't at my desk, in my comfort zone, in my workspace Has to be treated as recreational, and I should have tried to take it on the road with me. You know? It it was just one of those things where, you know, Yeah. I had some go my way, some didn't, and kind of like a a breakeven kinda thing. But, you know, just those moments of of, you know, oh, you're doing that again, you know, from the wife or, hey. We're gonna be late for dinner. Oh, babe, just let me get this one this one in.

Shane Mercer [00:05:15]:

You know? It's like no. I gotta I gotta check that next time and make sure that, you know, time you go on vacation, take a full on vacation away from it. You know yeah. You know, pool poolside bedding can be fun and that kind of thing, but I have to look at it in terms this is strictly just for fun and only in those moments where where I can have that little bit of fun. So little little learning experience for me there.

Andrew Pace [00:05:34]:

Yeah. And as someone that's just No joke. So if you guys are good at sports betting and actually succeed with it and you're betting live like we are, plan to either completely unplug or plan to, when and wherever you are, uh-uh. That probably isn't gonna yield the best results. But, you know, maybe a couple of iPads, you know, couple games on in some capacity where you're maybe removed from your family and group for the vacation, and you say, hey, guys. I'm gonna work 2 hours at this time. I think you'll you you can still do really well. It's really all about your planning and how you're gonna, you know, set that all up for yourself.

Shane Mercer [00:06:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. You really sort of have to take a a an all in or all out approach, I think. You know? And and if you do wanna do some recreational stuff by the pool, that's fine too, but just know that Maybe my unit size will be, like, a 10th of what my dog will

Andrew Pace [00:06:40]:

be leaving. Right? Oh, that's That's the entertainment side of betting.

Shane Mercer [00:06:43]:

Right? Like, that's Exactly. Right? Yeah. You still wanna have a little bit of fun. Anyway.

Andrew Pace [00:06:47]:

I've had a I've had a few poolside parlors in my day.

Shane Mercer [00:06:49]:

Yeah. I know I know you've done you've done a few poolside here and there. Right? I mean, who who doesn't wanna do Right? Yeah. Anyway, it was it was still a great time, a lot of fun, but now I'm back, and I am, ready to dial in. And I've been dialed in over the past weekend, ready to to dial into betting, but also ready to dial into this podcast. We have got quite a lineup for all of you out there watching and listening. So, we have an interview today, but we're gonna have more coming up. I'll tell you a little bit about more, a little bit more about those later on.

Shane Mercer [00:07:17]:

But, for now, pace, I think maybe we, bring in our guests. And why don't we run that interview for you now? Here it is. Larry Fisher, head of content at Powerplay, and Rob Davies, chief operating officer at Powerplay. Welcome to the show, guys.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:07:33]:

Thank you.

Larry | PowerPlay [00:07:35]:

Yeah. Thanks for having us, guys. Looking forward

Shane Mercer [00:07:36]:

to it. Hey. Hey. Great to have you both on. As the name implies, I'm wondering, does your sportsbook have a hockey focus?

Larry | PowerPlay [00:07:48]:

Certainly plays well to hockey. Right? Power play. It it goes good with that with that target audience because certainly we're, big in Canada. It's it's Canada's one of our our main, targets, and and it it does play well that, the the power play name. Even though it's not focused on hockey, it's it it goes hand in hand for sure.

Shane Mercer [00:08:07]:

You know, we've got hockey day in Canada on Saturday. Anything special to to mark the occasion with your sportsbook?

Larry | PowerPlay [00:08:14]:

Actually, there is. We're we're boosting the odds for the the potential for a Canadian team to win the Stanley Cup because you look at the the recent streaks of, obviously, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, and even Toronto. Toronto's kinda hit and miss, but, and Calgary's coming on a little strong. But So there there are a number of Canadian teams in the playoff race, some that are considered Stanley Cup contenders. So we've boosted the odds from, plus 200 to plus 350 for for this week for, kind of a promotion leading up to hockey day in Canada as well as a a a 20 to 1 odds we'll give you for a for an all Canadian final, which obviously when you look at the Eastern Conference, you're you're probably looking at Toronto. So, the potential of Toronto facing, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton in the final. And, obviously, even tonight, Edmonton and and Toronto are facing off big, McDavid Matthews rivalry. So it's it's interesting, and and it's definitely a a a good week for all Canadian matchups in the NHL.

Shane Mercer [00:09:11]:

Any any kind of suggestion that Toronto could make the final is is met with very cautious optimism over here as a guy who's in the Toronto area. You know, that that's something that, that that I would wanna get my hopes up for too too much. But, that that sounds pretty cool and, and, sort of a fun sort of future that they're, being offered. You know, Rob, this question is sort of for you. You know, we're called InplayLive. That that's the, you know, the the company here that's that, you know, is presenting this podcast Behind the Lines. And, you know, as our name suggests, we focus on live betting. How would you describe the live wagering experience at Powerplay?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:09:51]:

Good question. I mean, I think I I I think, yeah, it's good what we do. I think I mean, I've come from a European background, so, you know, live betting is is paramount in in European sport. I think North America is a little bit behind that, and I think we're just trying to adjust to that now and trying to make sure that our online offering is on a par with what some of the, potentially, the European books are able to take just in terms of the scope and in terms of the content and in terms of the timings and just you know, it's just a much more attractive proposition, I think, for punters, and I think the European markets probably latched onto it quicker than the North American markets, and we're trying to sort of redraft that balance with our offering.

Shane Mercer [00:10:32]:

Yeah. Certainly, on that side of the pond, a pace, we've sort of seen that that they are a little bit more ahead of us than we are here in North America just generally in in the sports betting space.

Andrew Pace [00:10:42]:

I mean, I would agree with that sentiment historically, but it's funny. So I yesterday, I was sitting here and I watched Jamie Foxx pop up on my screen. Right? You know, the the BetMGM ad.

Andrew Pace [00:10:52]:

And I thought to myself, how the hell is this sportsbook competing with the DraftKings, the FanDuels, the 3 six fives, when their live offering is actually so inferior. Anything from same game parlays to result of drive betting, result of play betting. Player props, yes, BetMGM has some of them, but I was looking at it and going, jeez. It's crazy, and it's it's literally the name and the brand. So I was thinking about you guys obviously coming on the show, and I thought to myself, how does it really fit in the whole ecosystem? You know, obviously, the major books put that aside, but, like, these live markets that, you know, you guys are competing with that are obviously, like, extremely robust. And, you know, I like, looking at some of the the markets yesterday that I think maybe a lot of bettors pass over. I'm not entirely sure, but right down to the type of play and the outcome of that play combined in 1 pick where you're You are literally betting with, like, 2 to 5 second results after the time you've placed the wager. It's quicker than a spin of a roulette wheel.

Larry | PowerPlay [00:12:00]:

Especially for the the NFL playoffs. I know I've seen a lot of those, a lot of action in the NFL playoffs. But definitely from from PowerPlay's perspective, I know it's something we're we're very interested in. We know there's a demand for it. We know that there's an appetite for it among among our players and our users. It's something they we get a lot of feedback that they want more live props and and and and to be able to do those combos and stuff. So definitely, it's looking to the future, it's something we're looking to add more and more of and and find our place in that market as we know it's, it is the future and it's it's, you know, it's it's entertainment value is second to none when you can make those wagers that are gonna be impacted in, like I said, a a matter of a minute or two. Right? It's it's it's that much more exciting.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:12:41]:

I mean, I think it's interesting that differences from from Europe and North America, but, obviously, in in Europe, note betting's being being more common and more popular for longer. But on the North American side, you know, in the European side, it's a lot about, you know, just the game result and, you know, maybe first, correct scores or 1st goal scores in soccer, although I would call it football, obviously. But but in the North American side, it's much more about prop betting. So I think putting that prop betting and live betting experience together for us is where the real opportunity lies.

Shane Mercer [00:13:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, the a lot of opportunity there. But, also, you know, on this side of the pond, a lot of opportunity for the sportsbooks to kind of enter and grow and and that kind of thing. A lot of sort of unclaimed ground out there in the North American market. You know, initially, in in sort of my process of of kinda getting you guys on the show. I I saw a press release of you guys sort of celebrating your 5 year, anniversary. So I think you launched in 2018.

Shane Mercer [00:13:44]:

You licensed in Ontario in 2022. Talk to me a little bit about the process of building a sportsbook in the North American market. You know, is it as easy as it looks?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:13:58]:

I mean, I I think, I mean, our story is an interesting one because it was interesting that your first question about where power play came from, and and I wish it did come from from a sort of hockey association, but it was our, you know, our it was our founder, had a number of different names, and and that was the one he went with. And we think it's a great name, and it has applicability to you know, there's power plays in cricket, which is a sport I'm very passionate about. But, obviously, landing in and and we grew in Canada, and it was a little bit of a process of trial and error trying to find a market which should have got a sweet spot whereby there was enough customers there. There was enough, appetite for betting from a regulatory point of view. It was relatively easy to access. So, you know, Canada, we hit kind of things like payment methods are always really difficult for for sportsbooks coming in. If you can't get the money out, and we tried markets where We just couldn't get the money in or out, and so however good your product is. But Canada was the one that, you know, we found the sweet spot in terms of, us.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:14:58]:

The market appetite was there, and it was relatively easy to access, and it was relatively it was less competitive. I mean, that's changing, and I think the difference in our business between what we see in Ontario now, it's regulated and a lot of big boys coming in, versus the the other provinces in Canada where it it's not quite the same, and it's probably slightly less competitive. But, yeah, I think building the sportsbook, I mean, you know, there is some strategy and there is some planning, but some of it's finding the right market at the right time. I think we were lucky with the Canadian market, and we've managed to build the customer base. And then when we do regulate, like, Ontario, we have that customer base and that audience who understand us and understand our product.

Shane Mercer [00:15:40]:

I I wanna ask you about that customer base, and kind of how you compete with the with those big dogs as you kinda kinda call them there. You know, when you are competing with those big, sportsbooks, I would imagine that oftentimes the types of customers Powerplay attracts are the ones who are looking for alternatives to those big sportsbooks. And, you know, the sports bettors seeking those alternatives may often also be very sharp bettors. Like many members of our audience who are who are gonna listen to this and and watch this podcast, you know, Pace would consider himself a pretty sharp bettor, and and I would consider him a pretty sharp bettor as well. What does that relationship look like between Powerplay and its customers and specifically those sharp sports bettors?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:16:25]:

Well, I mean, that, you know, if I could tell them. I mean, my background is actually customer operations, so I sort of come up through customer operations into a more senior role. So so for us, I think, one of the differentiators with Powerplay is the emphasis we put on building relationships with customers and having great service and being available 247 to them. And, yes, we do get shot back as in, and, you know, that that's inevitable in sportsbooks, and we want as much as possible to take them on and and, you know, and and and give them, you know, layers, bigger bets as we can with them. It's not, you know, it's not always possible, and then, you know, we have a business to run. But I think I thing. You know, what differentiates us? I think we've got an appetite to take upon it on, and we've got, you know, great service. And, you know, we want we want upon this to win, you know, from from time to time.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:17:12]:

We wanna have that, you know, to them to have that great experience.

Shane Mercer [00:17:15]:

Does Powerplay limit Sharp Bettors? Because you kind of sort of alluded to there that you'd like to take their action, but you can't always.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:17:23]:

I think I think I don't think there's any sportsbook in the world that doesn't fit me as bad as I I that I'm aware of. So so yeah. Yeah. There comes a point where where, you know and and fair play, I wish I wish I was good enough to get limited, but I'm I'm just not, you know, I'm just talking about the last it's one of our it's one of my ambitions in life to be limited by sports, but but, unfortunately, it's something that's never happened to me. So, yeah, I think I'd be lying if I said we didn't limit customers, but we wanna give them a run. We wanna give them an opportunity. We wanna see what they're doing, to be honest, a lot of the time. But, yeah, inevitably, sometimes you just gotta take your hat off guys and say you're better than us.

Shane Mercer [00:18:04]:

So let me ask you about that then. I'm curious about how the process looks of limiting a sharp bettor. Is it is it a dollar amount? Is it a volume thing? Is it the markets that they're betting on. How does PowerPlay go about identifying those sharp bettors and limiting them?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:18:24]:

So I think I mean, each it's it's gonna depend on market. So the, you know, if it's a a money line on the NFL playoffs, we're gonna wanna lay huge you know, a huge limit. If it's a 3rd division Brazilian football game just by its nature. So the the market cap as to the the size of bet you wanna take is limited by that. And then there's a what we call a state factoring process comes into play. So, if you're good, you'll get you know, our customer. You start with a 100% of that state, but as you get better, you'll get limited. So if it's we're a 1,000 and you're 10%, you'll get a 100.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:19:01]:

Us. That that's the way it works. That's you know, I've had experience of all books in in Europe and North America. They all do it pretty much the same way. And it's a case of us. I'm looking at that feed of bets coming in, and if if they're constant you know, if a customer bets a market and then 2 minutes later, the price collapses and they consistently do that. You just know they've got a great angle, and and and and they're gonna be difficult to beat, and that's that's the way it works.

Shane Mercer [00:19:28]:

And and once they're identified as being difficult to beat, you know, essentially, then what? You you kind of limit them to a point where They don't wanna use your book anymore?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:19:38]:

I I mean, I guess so. I mean, we would wanna limit. Yeah. We'd want to still be able to use the book, but, yeah, if you're an owner and you can get, you know, $100 with us. You get 1,000 elsewhere. You're gonna go elsewhere.

Shane Mercer [00:19:49]:

You know, you you mentioned some of those small markets there. I'm kind of wondering, you know, if if someone's gonna be limited for betting them, why offer them in the 1st place?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:19:58]:

Well, we wanna walk through a range of markets to our our customers, and we have, you know, we will have interest in 3rd division Brazilian football or, you know, division 1, league 1. So you want to offer a wide range of markets to your customers, but, you know, you know, I mean, betting is that I'm sure you know. It's about how much information is in public domain. So with a you know, my team, Bald Wanderers, a league one side. You know? If 1 of the guys has had a big night out the night before, if the strikers had a big night out, Then, you know, there's people who would know that, whereas, you know, a Premier League player can't do that without everybody knowing. So where that information is limited and can get an edge, we just need to be cautious. You know? There's, you know, things like novelty markets on, you know, TV shows and stuff like that where people have information that we could never have. You know? And that's where we've just gotta be careful and and and more carefully manage our liabilities.

Andrew Pace [00:20:51]:

It's gone. You could you could sense me, Shane. So I have I have a question about that actually because if let's just use the the frame of reference that you just brought up there where you're saying, you know, 1 particular player is is getting in on odds that then that then plummet, and they you've seen consistency with that where you said they're going to be difficult to beat. I think that's a that's a good example, obviously, from your guy's standpoint where you go, hey. This this guy is just a sharp guy, and, you know, he's he's he's he's taken care of us in a certain way. Now I look at sharp action from the standpoint, and, again, I am not a sportsbook, but I look at it from the standpoint of balanced action. Right? So if we use a pregame, betting equation and we have 90% of the public on one side, And, you know, you do get some sharp action that comes in on the other side of that public action, that does show consistency or a consistent pattern of of winning with that particular account. Does that not help balance the overall equation, and isn't that player someone that you would want to help with that overall balance of handle.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:22:00]:

Yeah. I think in circumstances, yeah, you're right. In certain certain circumstances, you do wanna balance the book, and you will take action from, you know, a sharp bettor because it it suits the book. So yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Andrew Pace [00:22:11]:

So from a liability standpoint, if you are removing the sharp player from the equation. Does that not create, I guess, potential liability from the standpoint of Consistently getting public action on one's or let's call it yeah. Let's call it public action on on on one side that could expose you to, You know, a a loss, that that the book's not comfortable with?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:22:35]:

Yeah. I mean, I guess, in reality, if you looked at a 100 markets of ours, then It'd be quite rare actually where you want you know, you might wanna think from an operator point of view. All we wanna do is balance the book and take our margin. In reality, if you actually looked at what our books look like, 90% of those markets, you know, one one side or rather will mean win or lose to us. It's just on balance. We tend to win slightly more than than we lose, and that's where our margin comes in. So it's not a case that, you know, okay, on a really big market like the the Super Bowl, you know, where we've got action for 6 months in advance. We might be looking to balance the book.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:23:12]:

But where it's a game, where we might only take, you know, 50, a 100 bets on. The chances are it would be skewed one way or the other, and they always are. So it it so it's not a case of this thing. We're skewed on, yeah, the bills to win last night, and, yeah, we want the the other side to, we want action from the other side to balance the book. It's just if we did that, we would, you know, we'd never close a book. It's just not realistic.

Andrew Pace [00:23:36]:

Right. Right. So then if you kinda take that same philosophy and then you apply that to a live market, You might be dealing only with sharp action in that one particular case.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:23:46]:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Andrew Pace [00:23:48]:

And then in that in that case, if there is some sort of pattern, you look at actually removing that market or making an adjustment to that market rather than removing the player?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:23:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's part of it. You know, we I guess there's two control mechanisms where, you know, there's a longer term or may you look at the action from that specific customer, then there's a short term measure if you just alter the prices because, you know, and we see that all the time. We'll we'll start a market up and then all the action will be on one side and and, you know, we've just got all we've we've you know, if you say the odds represent the true probability, then we've got the true probability wrong. So I'll so we adjust our odds to to balance that and yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:24:26]:

Right. And I I think that's, that's obviously what I that's what I would expect a sportsbook to do in that in that case is go, hey. You know what? You guys got us on this market. We're gonna pull it. We're gonna change it. We're gonna make an adjustment. Now you touched on customer service and, obviously, how important, That is to you. I'll actually agree with that sentiment.

Andrew Pace [00:24:46]:

I actually went on your guys' chat before just to see how prominent, can't see the person's name, but she was she was great. Quick response, took care of, my questions that I needed. And, honestly, I I think that is an underrated aspect a lot of sportsbooks. But, yeah, from a customer service standpoint, I have noticed sportsbooks in general. So this isn't a direct shot at power play, but I'm curious to know, given that you do talk about your customer service, what your thoughts are on sportsbooks hiding behind Their odds provider as a separate entity. So I'm sorry. This is a business decision made by the trading team, and you cannot speak with them. Being this ongoing and consistent pattern that you see across the industry.

Andrew Pace [00:25:32]:

Because when I look at any industry as a whole, When you see businesses adopt the same practices everyone else and just basically say essentially that that's the way it is or that's how it is, I see opportunity because I look at that, and I go, there's an opportunity to disrupt here. There's an opportunity to be the leader in this space. Be that customer service, be that sharp action, be that whatever the case may be. And, of course, I'm not saying that PowerPlay needs to do all these things. What I'm saying is, do you guys handle those situations? Will you actually interact with a customer in a way that, does give them the actual reality of the situation, or do you guys do the whole, oh, it's a business decision from the trading team and, you know, you can't speak to them. And it's it's almost like the the books will play like a, I'm sorry. We can't do anything. It's their decision, not ours.

Andrew Pace [00:26:25]:

But meanwhile, you guys work together.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:26:28]:

Yeah. I mean, if if I can answer that sort of in the general and specific the general point I'd make is I think you're right. I think customer service isn't a I don't think sports would differentiate on it, and I think that's something we try and do and we want to do more of. And and, actually, interestingly, I think part of the reason is there's just something different about the gambling industry that that the customer I can't think of a parallel industry where the the the customer I

Shane Mercer [00:26:53]:

I agree.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:26:54]:

Right. And actually at. And I think I think that actually permeates a little bit the way customer service teams sometimes think about the partner. They're there to protect our margin and protect the money. And I think, you know, I do I do the the customer service training for my guys myself, and I try and break down that a little bit and get them to understand that, look. Yes. They wanna beat us, but they're also our customers. And if they we don't customers.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:27:17]:

We don't have revenue. I think in the specific, I think what we're talking about is ownership of an issue, and I think, you know, it's another thing that we that I teach when I talk to customer service guys is it's about owning that problem yourself. And that you might not know the answer, but I don't want people saying it's that team over there or it's someone else's department. I want them, you know, okay. Getting the information from the traders and and explaining it in a, you know, fair and reasonable way is I think I you know, I've done in terms of some of the decisions we've made. So, yeah, I I agree. Customer service in the gambling industry is not great, and I think it's absolutely opportunity to disrupt for for us as a brand. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:27:57]:

I find too with the whole AI conversation. It's almost like that is even further dehumanizing even the human aspect of a lot of this area of all industries, so it's really important, obviously, to engage with people. But I would love for someone to have just told me, hey, Andrew. You were too good. Us.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:28:16]:

You can't play. Exactly. And instead,

Andrew Pace [00:28:18]:

it's like you're hiding behind someone. You know? But, yeah, I hear you.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:28:22]:

I only wish I only wish someone had said that to me once, but, unfortunately.

Shane Mercer [00:28:27]:

Hey. We we we can teach you, Rob. We we we we got some skills to subscribe, buddy. We get I'll teach. You know?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:28:34]:

Just just just find me out on the AI point. I think that's another area where it is a sort of structural problem with customer service team because I'm constantly getting people telling me that I've got these wonderful technology solutions so you can get rid of your agents. I don't want that. I want our real agents talking to our customers because those interactions are so valuable if a customer can't log in or they, You know, they've got problem with their deposit or their withdrawal. I don't want an AI chatbot dealing with it and and and annoying them. I want a a a real person dealing with them straight away so they can solve the problem, then they can, you know, get back into the action.

Shane Mercer [00:29:11]:

I I wanna ask you about, you know, one one sort of problem that may arise in the in a in a customer relations situation there where somebody might be complaining about something. And, you know, this is in the area of of bad lines that get posted, and I'm talking about, you know, perhaps a hanging line. So so, I'm I'm talking about a situation where the outcome's already known, but the line is still posted and somebody bets one side of that. Or or perhaps perhaps the outcome isn't known, but the odds are totally off. And and, you know, one side is really, really favored, but the odds don't reflect that. They're still sitting at a at an even money kind of kind of situation. How does PowerPlay treat those bets specifically? You know? When when there is either a a line that's still posted, you know, and the outcome's already known or or the odds are just way off. How how do you treat those situations?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:30:03]:

I mean, I think I mean, it's sort of fair play, isn't it? I mean, I think I I wish I could say that we would never make a mistake and never lean a a live a live open a line opener. We would never have incorrect odds, but the reality is the technology we're dealing with and as human beings and that it will happen. And and we can't, you know, in in reality, sustain the business if we you know, if something's been left up a 100 to 1 and put someone for a 1,000 on, we, you know, we just won't have a business. So I think we need to we need to make the adjustment. We need to void the bat or whatever our our specific rule says in that circumstance, but it's about communicating with the customer, looking at the value of the customer. And, also, you know, you can't and I you know, we're dealing with these situations for for 20 years in different circumstances, and sometimes you can see it's clearly you know, the customer normally bets $10, and he's back $1,000. You know, you can sort of see something happen. Now it's some places, you know, and I've dealt with cases like this where you've had the customer always bets $400.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:31:07]:

He always bets on the money line, and it's, you know, 5 minutes late. And you you can look at the bets, and you can see all the ones that, you know, you guess they knew. And you see the odd one and you think, he probably didn't even know the game had started or he didn't know there'd be a good game. And and, actually, You can't see inside the head, so you you'd never know. So in those cases, you know, I'm all for, you know, being sensible, applying a bit of discretion, and saying, look. You know? But we'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this said situation. We won't apply our role, and we'll either pay the bet out or give you know? I think we we've got to be sensible because you want to maintain a long term relationship with customers. And and, you know, in in some cases, it is a genuine mistake on that.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:31:48]:

It's not, you know, deliberate.

Shane Mercer [00:31:51]:

What about when when the book makes a mistake? Because I know you said that you, you know, you hope that you never will, but but it happens, and we all make mistakes. Right? We make mistakes as bettors. Books make mistakes. These things happen. When when a bad line does get posted, though so you're kinda, you know, suggesting that, yes, you will void the bat. Right? Because that's you know, it it was just incorrect and a mistake was made, and you'll sort of, you know, void the bet. Do do you void both sides of the bet, though, The winner and the losing side.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:32:18]:

Yeah. I mean, if if it's late, it's late. We we will we, yeah, we will avoid both, definitely. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:32:24]:

Right. Okay. You know, Pace, you you've tried I I didn't get a chance to try the PowerPlay, sportsbook, myself. But, Pace, you had a chance to to do some betting on the PowerPlay site. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:32:36]:

Yeah. So I think just in line with this whole discussion, I think what we've witnessed through our lens is obviously very much North America based. And there's this bull rush to the North American sports betting market. And other odds providers and and, obviously, purchases that have happened. And one of the discussions that we've really followed on this podcast has been, the launch of sportsbooks, but also the closure of sportsbooks. FoxBet. I'm not sure how you guys are familiar with them. They shut down operation, and it looks like WinBet, is kind of right behind them.

Andrew Pace [00:33:19]:

They shut down in almost every state, and they're They're very much just hanging by a thread in the few states or the one state that they're they're still operating in. And and you think about those names, like FoxBet is not just a Fox. It's It's Fox Sports. It's it's the major, you know, networking publication of of broadcasting company, and and Wynn is Steve Wynn. Right? So, Obviously, major player on the Las Vegas Strip and hotels across, North America. Right? And and the reason why those books shut down, there us. Fox Pet had an independent odds provider, but Wynn was using scientific gaming. And quite honestly, some of the softest lines I've ever seen in my life.

Andrew Pace [00:33:57]:

And I am a sharp bettor. And, you know, I do see the opportunities that people have, against certain odds providers and against certain books, and I see them consistently. I see them our I see them over time, and I see them in a whole series of different ways. As I like to say to people, there are many different ways to make money from betting on sports. And, of course, I'm speaking about, You know, the people that you really don't want playing on your sportsbook. But it's my belief that those sportsbooks actually shut down Because of the fact that there was this rush to the market, there was massive expenditures in ad spend, promotions to players, but also too, we saw, especially in the United States, like, I really didn't see this in Canada. But honoring bad lines, books paying out voided markets, and new sportsbooks with new odds providers providing a lot of opportunity for mistakes to be out there and readily be available to bet on. Now, again, going back to my lens, I would coach players and say, guys, if you bet on these lines, like, you're gonna lose your account.

Andrew Pace [00:35:03]:

If you bet on these lines, it won't be sustainable, but if you're gonna, you know, make hay while the sun's shining kinda thing. If you have these opportunities, by all means, go ahead and and and go hit them when and where you can. Just don't expect it to to continue. So a state like New Jersey being a really good example, they have, you know, specific regulation that actually doesn't allow sportsbooks to, void some of these some of these bets. So people have been able to successfully go to the the the New Jersey regulator when a book has overturned like this and and then gone and gotten their money out of the situation. Now the reason why Shane brought stuff is is actually kind of an unfortunate situation. So I signed up for a Powerplay account a few years ago and, lost some money into there, which I I tend to do on purpose, and then I'll come back to the sportsbook. Gotta laugh at you.

Andrew Pace [00:35:53]:

It's okay. You guys got me. Don't worry. You won this battle. So, came back to Powerplay because I knew that this interview was coming. I'm like, you know what? I wanna play on their lines the weekend and and have some fun and and see how it goes. So there was a line posted in the Miami Dolphins, New York Jets game, and, of course, you guys aren't gonna be able to To reference this, and I bet my standard amount on the line. Everywhere was at minus 9a half for the first half.

Andrew Pace [00:36:18]:

It was sitting at minus 3a half. So I'm like, alright. Let's see how they're gonna handle $1,000 on the the soft side. $1 on the side that should lose. Like, the the 1,000 on the the winning side is is as close to it's like a 99% situation, and I threw a dollar on the other side. So you guys voided the the winning side and took the dollar on the losing side. So both sides were not voided. Now I am I'm gonna I'm gonna just put my stance out there.

Andrew Pace [00:36:48]:

Am a person that firmly believes that if a sportsbook posts a really bad line, that they should not pay it, and a lot of our group will disagree with me on that because they will say, Pace, you know what? We're against the books. How many bets would I have wanted to take back if I could if I didn't wanna click this side or a mistake that I made or whatever, but that's the game that we play. I can certainly understand an agreement is made at time that you place the wager that both sides agreed to and that a sportsbook should be held accountable in those circumstances, but I totally get it. A mistake happens with a sportsbook, you can potentially have 1,000,000, if not tens of 1,000,000 of dollars in exposure depending on that game. That can be incredibly challenging for that sportsbook to deal with. Now I was a losing player on your site. The the losing side, lost. The winning side got voided, and then, of course, In came the limits, and I got limited being a losing player on Powerplay.

Andrew Pace [00:37:48]:

So I I super appreciate you guys coming on the show. I didn't know that this is going to happen to me leading up to the show. But I gotta be honest with you guys. This is the problem with this industry. I was punished for walking into your store and taking something that you offered me. I didn't get paid out, and I lost my account. You know, you sit there and go, what is a guy to do in these spots? And and and how can a book like Powerplay, that isn't one of the major players that is up and coming be more reputable in a place like this.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:38:26]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I can't comment on the individual, so because I, you know, I just I just don't see everything, but but we can look at it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the experience wasn't great, but but I yeah. I I I don't know the details, but I think, you know

Andrew Pace [00:38:40]:

Yeah. I I just gave you the details, Rob.

Shane Mercer [00:38:44]:

I I I wanna just jump in there and ask, you know, with the the the sort of circumstance that pace outline isn't something that is, rare for us to see. We've seen it with other sportsbooks as well. And so, you know, one side, winning side voided. Losing side, money taken. You know? Why aren't we voiding both sides? How is that fair?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:39:07]:

Yeah. Well, that's my understanding, but both sides should be void. This to say, you know, it it I don't I haven't seen that bet, so that that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm saying you give me the same sense. I'm saying in my view, both sides should have been voided. If they haven't been, that doesn't look like it's been done right, but I I haven't seen that individual case.

Shane Mercer [00:39:25]:

Okay. So so What are the chances that this was a one off?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:39:32]:

I I don't know. I would hope it hope it is. I think in in general, that's the principle I would apply.

Shane Mercer [00:39:37]:

Okay. Well, you know, we we kinda have to take your take your word for it on on that side of things. You know, I wanna move the conversation forward a little bit here. A big part of of our podcast and and its sort of reason for existence is to, promote, you know, real responsible betting and real responsible wagering And and, you know, promote concepts, education tools that kind of feed into that. Where does Powerplay kind of align when it comes to responsible wagering. What is responsible wagering to Powerpoint?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:40:10]:

I think well, I mean, David, do you wanna take this or

Andrew Pace [00:40:13]:

Yeah. I mean,

Larry | PowerPlay [00:40:14]:

I definitely think we do have the the tools in place and and the support page. It's something that's, it it is, you know, beyond just lip service. It is something that we we do offer our players, and we do have reminders. I know we're gonna grow our our social media presence in the the weeks months to come. That's something we're passionate about reviving, and and in there, there's gonna be a lot of reminders about responsible gambling and and something that, especially in in newer markets or, you know, now with the live betting in Ontario. And and like Pace said earlier, the the the 1 in 2 minute turnaround bets and and, you know, you can get caught up, but not in get the the intensity going or the excitement going. So, with with more and more of that coming online, I think it becomes that much more important to to really encourage and and and have those tools accessible when it comes to responsible gambling. And, certainly, Powerplay wants to be a a leader in on that side of, the amongst the the group as a whole, but, in the industry, but, certainly, power play takes that very seriously.

Shane Mercer [00:41:09]:

I I'm wondering you know, you you you mentioned that, you know, you're taking it seriously, which is fantastic, and and you plan to have tools. I'm wondering if that, toolbox, contains things like, tutorials on how to meddle, explanations on arbitrage, how to practice proper money management, a tracking tool for tracking wagers. Any of these things in that toolbox?

Rob | PowerPlay [00:41:32]:

I mean, I think I think our focus on toolboxes is things like, you know, time outs, deposit limits, self exclusion, you know, those opportunities. I think some of the stuff you mentioned is yeah. Yeah. And and and it's a sensible suggestion, so, you know, you should have some of that information on the site. We have information for, you know, problem gambling organizations. We don't specifically have stuff about, you know, how to bet, how to, arbitrage how to, you know I mean, that stuff is widely available, but it's an interesting point you raised about is whether it's something we should have side. But but for us, the toolkit is about, you know, if you wanna take a break from gambling, if you wanna talk some if you're worried about your gambling, you know, if you wanna set a deposit limit, if you wanna set a a loss limit, you know, these are the sorts of tools that are available to customers to, you know, back in a more responsible and sustainable way.

Shane Mercer [00:42:28]:

Those are all the questions I have, guys. Did you have any final messages that you'd like to share with our audience?

Larry | PowerPlay [00:42:34]:

I guess just, obviously, again, the excitement over the the Canadian NHL teams and the success they've been having, definitely, there's been a lot of action on on Canadian teams this year and looking forward to the NHL betting, in the second half of the season that is gonna heat up again. And and, obviously, the the the the 2 boosted odds with the the all Canadian final as as you mentioned. I don't know how much action that'll get with Toronto unless they pick it up, but, certainly, the the Western Conference has a few contenders in Canada, and and, again, the the boosted odds for the the the potential for a Canadian team to bring the Stanley Cup almost something we're really excited about. And and, again, as I said, power play goes so well with hockey, so we're we're definitely excited to have a a a big share market share here in Canada and and certainly within the hockey crowd as well.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:43:21]:

Love the hockey. Yeah. And and I I'm not gonna talk about American occasion sport because I'm just not the right person to do that, but but it certainly pays from a customer service side. Look. You know? I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm disappointed we you know, the experience wasn't great, but I'm I'm more than happy looking at the the details. We will get it wrong from time to time. We will make mistakes, but, you know, we're committed to, you know, provide just being fair and reasonable with with customers. I mean, it's nice that you say, you dissuade your your sort of audience from from taking advantage of lines because, yeah, there are people out there who do, and and we we want a fair, you know, a sort of fair environment where we treat you fairly, and you treat us badly, and we both charm win from one one another.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:44:09]:

And and if we don't get it right, then, you know, I'm more than happy to hold my hands up and and look at what we've done.

Andrew Pace [00:44:15]:

Us. Yeah. I I appreciate that, Rob. I think that in this case, specifically, I actually would not have bet that line because I know what the outcome was I know the outcome that's coming for me, Having bet on that line. But but I did because I wanted to see, how you guys handle it. And I think that in any case, For anything, business, like, I'm I'm a CEO of a company. Right? I think there's always opportunities for improvement. And, You know, you you saying that that stuff matters.

Andrew Pace [00:44:41]:

Right? You know, I'm not I'm not looking to get paid. That's the last thing I'm I'm looking for here. I don't I don't need you to go reverse that line. I actually don't want you do that. I think more than anything, again, I go back to my previous statement that I made. There's an opportunity in this industry To be a leader amidst, quite honestly, a lot of really bad practices. And You you said there aren't any sportsbooks that that don't limit players. Well, pinnacle doesn't limit, winning players.

Andrew Pace [00:45:11]:

Bookmaker doesn't limit winning players. There's a new sportsbook out of Ohio, and, of there's multiple exchanges, and there's some pretty exciting stuff going on in the crypto space in the industry. And I'm not saying that you don't need to limit your players. I would love for a purified betting industry where you guys go, hey. You know what? This is how we handle sharp action, and this is how it fits in our equation. And that might be something that's not important to you guys, and, you know, that's fair. That's fine. You guys are, you know, in this space for a reason, and and and you're doing your things for a reason.

Andrew Pace [00:45:41]:

But, yeah, I I I think that what happened to me is a great example of how things could be cleaned up a little bit because I actually took you at face value when you said, we would void both sides of the bat, and I think that's probably what you guys would want to do in that circumstance. And I know that there's a relationship Between the sportsbook and the the trading team, and the trading team may have made that decision, and that might be something where you have the opportunity to go, jeez. You know, we shouldn't have done that, And we're gonna go follow-up with them and make sure that this never happens again. And then that's where this process of starting to purify, You know, the industry as a whole through 1 sportsbook leading the charge. That's what we're looking for at in PlayLive, and that's why we actually have such a great relationship with Pinnacle because, They don't limit players, and I hate their sports book in a lot of ways. But I go, hey. You know what? At least their values are in line with allowing some of these sharp bettors to play because for a guy like myself, if I wanna keep playing, I I have to have a sportsbook like Pinnacle that isn't gonna kick me off the site. So I appreciate your response, and, like, Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:46:40]:

I I think it's just a great opportunity.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:46:42]:

Yeah. I mean and, you know, just in in terms of the relationship with traders. I mean, far be it for me to denigrate trading teams, but there is there is, you know, you know, conflict at times between trading teams, and there's plenty of plenty of occasions where I've been, you know, walked onto a trading floor having wanted to reverse a decision because, you know, the traders, They can very much see it as their own money, and and and and, actually, they don't always look at the world of view about building the relationship with the customers and and treating them fairly and reasonably. And I'm not saying that's happened in this circumstances, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Andrew Pace [00:47:16]:

Right. Right. Well, we've seen that firsthand through our lens again with the major hosts. So, like, DraftKings hosts, for example. You know, they're offering guys Super Bowl tickets and and, amazing prize packages and all this kinda stuff, and we'll get a player. And their host texts them saying like, hey. Haven't seen you in a while. Got a great promotion for you, blah blah blah blah blah.

Andrew Pace [00:47:37]:

And they respond, and they go, I can't play on your site anymore. Like, I'd love to keep playing, and the host didn't even actually know that this had occurred to one of his top players. Right? So We've seen a lot of this stuff happen, and there is certainly a disconnect, with, those trading teams. That's, again, some sports sportsbooks hide behind that, And other sportsbooks don't, and and, Yeah. I mean, it it certainly is a challenge. And and DraftKings owns their trading team. They bought SP Tech, which is their trading team, and they still are, like, such separate entities, with respect to what's going on. So, Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:48:13]:

Definitely something that I think is is an opportunity. I think that I'd just probably leave it at that.

Larry | PowerPlay [00:48:17]:

Yeah. And that is something to Rob's team. They they do have a a a VIP experience, and then that's something that really power play takes pride in is is trap or, you know, having the the VIP bettors and and and the players and and really giving them the the best experience they can have on the site. Like I said, maybe there is a a disconnect there at times as well.

Shane Mercer [00:48:36]:

Well, guys, Rob, Larry, Rob Davies, Larry Fisher. Rob is the o o chief operating officer of Powerplay, and Larry Fisher, head of content at Powerplay. Guys, I really appreciate both of you coming on the show. Thanks so much.

Rob | PowerPlay [00:48:50]:

Thank you very much. Yeah.

Larry | PowerPlay [00:48:51]:

Thanks for having us, guys.

Shane Mercer [00:48:52]:

Alright. So that was the team from Powerplay. What a what a conversation there, pace. You know? I've got some some thoughts on it, especially when it comes to, to limiting players. And, of course, you know, the whole conversation around the voided bet versus, you know, winning side, Being voided, losing side, not being voided. You know? But, I I'm really, I I appreciate both of them for coming on the show and engaging with us in that way. So so, Pace, what you know, thoughts from you?

Andrew Pace [00:49:21]:

I mean, I I I I He was not sugarcoating or bullshitting us. He cares about his customer service. He came from the bottom of that sportsbook And worked his way up to the COO, c level management. So he's a he's a pillar In their organization, and I genuinely think I caught him off guard there because I think he was disappointed that that was the practice that occurred at his sportsbook. So creating that awareness is is a really positive thing, so I'm glad we were able to do that. And and I I I look forward to Seeing, how how they they take that conversation, to heart, and and seeing if they, you know, do take the their level of service, to the next level, having had met with us. We're a unique group. We're not some easy group of people to deal with.

Andrew Pace [00:50:18]:

We're we are the fucking thorn in their sides where guys that win money and call them out for their practices. Like, that's not fun. So you gotta give these guys credit. They came on the show. They took the bullets. He took it to heart. I think he handled the feedback well. So, yeah, I appreciate them coming on.

Shane Mercer [00:50:33]:

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, props to them for for stepping up and and kinda handling it the way the way they did, and and we'll see what happens. I mean, maybe they will do something. Maybe they'll look at your account base. Maybe they'll have your limits raised or

Andrew Pace [00:50:44]:

you know? And I didn't say this, but I don't want the money. Bring my account back.

Shane Mercer [00:50:48]:

Give me my account back.

Andrew Pace [00:50:50]:

If you guys are still listening, it's a terrible business decision, but give me my account back. Thanks.

Shane Mercer [00:50:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. You you don't need the $1 on the loss side. You just want that account back and and, you know, get get those limits left. And, you know, a couple of other things, though. I think, you know, we got we gained some really, you know, nice inside detail on how they limit players. You know, nothing perhaps maybe new to you, PACE, but perhaps some of our audience members kind of learning from that. And I I learned a little bit more on on sort of, you know, the idea that that, you know, you start at a 100% and you slowly kinda work your way down.

Shane Mercer [00:51:19]:

I've seen it in practice, but it was sort of interesting to hear it from an executive's note. Yeah. And sort of, you know, kind of just sort of confirm what I think we already knew. And so so that was kind of, you know, illuminating. But then the other side of it, you know, when it came to responsible wagering, it's pretty clear that, you know, they're they're not interested in real responsible wagering From the ways that we kind of look at it, they're sort of still looking at it through the lens. So that the rest of the industry looks at it, you know, in terms of timeouts and, you know, taking breaks and all that sort of as opposed to giving you the sports bettor, the tools you need to succeed. And I guess, you know, why would they? It's not in their interest.

Andrew Pace [00:51:57]:

Okay. And, well, I actually I I could disagree with you on that to an extent, Shane. He said these this is what we offer. Right? And could we offer betting education? He thought about it, and he said, yes. We could. Yeah. So he could go and make those steps. And Should he teach people how to middle an arbitrage? If I was a sportsbook, I wouldn't.

Andrew Pace [00:52:18]:

Yeah. I wouldn't do that. Pinnacle does, and they're an outlier. Should they go teach people how to middle an arbitrage? I wouldn't. But could they offer some wager tracking? Could they or maybe some betting education? You know? We're putting together this video on on how to use power play and Yeah. The benefits and the entertainment aspects of sports betting and the risks associated with sports betting. That would be a really cool and and really special thing to do in this industry that they could potentially they could potentially look at. When you talk about, oh, they don't offer real betting tools.

Andrew Pace [00:52:54]:

Again, I I look at it from the standpoint of, This is the industry. Do they know about this opportunity? Probably not or not to the degree that we would want them to, but, again, we are outliers. Could they look and find some middle ground and and offer some things to their customers? Absolutely. Do they have the resources, time, and energy to do it? That's a whole other discussion, and that's for them, not

Shane Mercer [00:53:17]:

for us. Yeah. You know, I think another, you know, tool that they could put put in the box and you're right. He did think about it, and he did say that, you know, we we can look at other things and and consider, you know, adding other other tools to that box. Another one would be, you know, simple money management. Right? That doesn't necessarily, cost them anything in terms of people, you know, winning. Right? But just simple money management practices, 1%, 2% of your bankroll, how to kind of manage a bankroll over time. And, you know, if if it were to sort of be in their favor, how can a player lose money more slowly over time? Right? That might be sort of a a nice middle ground there.

Andrew Pace [00:53:53]:

Totally.

Shane Mercer [00:53:54]:

Yeah. But, you know, anyway, again, kudos to them for coming on the show. And, PACE, This was just the first. The first of many. We're gonna be talking to other people, from sportsbooks perhaps, other, people out there in this, sports betting landscape, you know, that have that we think may have valuable information, knowledge, tips, tools, stuff to share With us and our audience. And so we've got several more lined up, for the beginning of 2024 here, which I'm really excited about. I love meeting new people and chatting with new people And learning new things. And one of those topics, that we're gonna be exploring a little more closely in the coming weeks is the idea of exchanges.

Shane Mercer [00:54:33]:

And this is something that's still relatively new in the North American market. It is, pretty prevalent already on, on the UK side and in on in, On that side of the pond. But we are, seeing more of them here, and I'm really looking forward to, exploring that topic and those ideas. And so, for all of you out there listening and watching. That's something that you can expect in in the coming weeks, and so really excited about that.

Andrew Pace [00:54:59]:

Yeah. I'm I'm pumped, Shane. It should be a great year ahead, and, yeah, great shows lined up. And, yeah, just one last shout out to those guys. They knew today was gonna be Difficult, and they still came on. And, they took the heat, and, hopefully, we got a little bit closer to purifying the betting industry.

Shane Mercer [00:55:17]:

One show at a time. Alright, buddy. Till next week. Keep eating those bucks. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and pride. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts.

Shane Mercer [00:55:31]:

Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.