Episode 57

Andrew Pace [00:00:00]:

This whole idea of this this organization, that number 1 sounds like some sort of final boss that you would play in a video game or something like Ta and I would use on our hair to try to restore our hair line. It it sounds evil. Like, genuinely, like

Shane Mercer [00:00:25]:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the only podcast purifying the sports betting industry. I'm your host, Shane Mercer. As always, we've got Andrew Pace, the founder of inplayLIVE. And joining us today, we've got TAW Goodman, one of the pros over at inplayLIVE. And if you guys wanna see what it's all about on the inside, we've got a promo code for you that is 'BEHINDTHELINES', all caps, where you can bet live with these 2 guys. Alright. We've got a jam packed show for you guys today. We've got the Massachusetts Gaming Commission.

Shane Mercer [00:00:56]:

We're gonna talk about how they're digging deep into the practice of limiting. We've got ROGA. We'll tell you what that's all about and whether or not, it's it's good for us or bad for us. Responsible gaming has a new face, kind of. It's UFC 300. What does MMA betting lie look like live? And, we've got a bit of a surprise topic. I'll put these 2 guys on the spot at the end of the show. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:01:21]:

Fuck. I know you guys are like, What? Alright.

Shane Mercer [00:01:27]:

Pace, TAW, you guys are just getting back from Las Vegas. How was it? You guys had a good time?

Andrew Pace [00:01:31]:

Go ahead, TAW.

TAW Goodman [00:01:32]:

We had a great time. Did a lot of value betting in the pool, playing some blackjack. You know, responsible gaming and then playing, blackjack on my phone while, at the pool playing blackjack. And then made some really solid paper ticket parlay bets. You know? All the things we preach and practice here at inplayLIVE.

Shane Mercer [00:01:59]:

Oh, wow. It sounds like it was a lot of fun. Did you guys make any money?

TAW Goodman [00:02:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. Despite all the bad things that we did, we made some money doing the things we do every day. So, it made up for some of the losses that we had.

Shane Mercer [00:02:14]:

At least we Okay. Okay. So some value wagers to pay for the for the paper ticket parlays.

TAW Goodman [00:02:19]:

That's right.

Andrew Pace [00:02:21]:

We, we, we did really well, actually. Like, we had some definitely some some bad runs, but we had some really big runs, of, you know, just playing the stupid stuff that TAW Goodman's referring to there. But we couldn't like, we were like, we have to hit a physical paper ticket. And we went, like, o for 6 on.

Andrew Pace [00:02:45]:

And then we finally hit 1 in the pool, and it was it was electric moment for sure. But, actually, I have

Andrew Pace [00:02:49]:

a funny story from there. I'll just fire through it really quickly. I was placing that exact physical ticket, the only one that I won. And the guy beside me is like, yo, bro. What's your lock for today? And I was like, are you are you freaking kidding me right now? So I'm like, I got no locks, man. I I I, I can't help you there. And he's like, he, like, dropped his arms and, like, gave me, like, this sideways head tilt. Like, don't be that guy kinda thing to me.

Andrew Pace [00:03:15]:

And he's like, I can't remember what he said. Oh, he's like, Cubs, Rockies, over? No. No. No. Sorry. It was coyotes. It was NHL. He goes coyotes something over.

Andrew Pace [00:03:25]:

He's like, I know it can't lose today. He's like, I'm giving you that. Now I need your logs. And I'm like, okay, man. Listen. Like, the coyotes game, I actually should check to see that day if it went over or not. I'm like, it is not guaranteed to go over. That's not how this works.

Andrew Pace [00:03:42]:

Like, it could easily go under. That game could go to overtime 0. Like, you're completely ignoring statistics, probability, all that kind of stuff. He's like, what the fuck, man? He's like, I just want a lock from you. And I was like, alright. Let's do it. I'm like, alright. Let's do that.

Andrew Pace [00:03:58]:

So I went down the menu. I went down the menu, and I was

Andrew Pace [00:04:02]:

like, take this, take this. I'm like, go small on this. Go heavy on this. I swear to god every single piece of advice I gave him. It all won.

Shane Mercer [00:04:13]:

So you did have a lock. You you had plenty of locks.

Andrew Pace [00:04:15]:

No. The guy the there was

Andrew Pace [00:04:17]:

no mention of inplayLIVE, like, no mention of anything. I never saw the guy again. I never want to see

Andrew Pace [00:04:21]:

the guy again. And I'm just sitting there howling laughing because I was like, I wanna see how my, fake lock parlor came through for

Andrew Pace [00:04:28]:

this guy, and, yeah, it it hit.

Shane Mercer [00:04:31]:

That's awesome. Wow.

TAW Goodman [00:04:33]:

Then his coyotes coyotes bet probably lost, and then he lost his parlay anyways. So Right.

Andrew Pace [00:04:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Shane Mercer [00:04:39]:

Yeah. That's for sure how I went down. That's awesome, though. Well, glad to hear you guys had a good time, that that you didn't lose too much. In fact, made a little bit. That's that's a win when you go to Vegas, 100%. Okay. Let's get into some of the nitty gritty of of today's show, though.

Shane Mercer [00:04:55]:

And this has been sort of a big part of the conversation taking place in our Discord channel, the inplayLIVE Discord channel, the pro Discord channel at least anyway. And, I'm sure it's it's making waves out there in in the betting community as a whole. But this is coming out of Massachusetts. And their gaming commission wants to invite sportsbook operators to discuss the practice of limiting. In fact, one of the commissioners said they wanna take a deep dive into this practice, and we're all sitting on the sidelines kinda cheering like, yes. Finally, a regulator wants to wants to dive into this. You know, but they're they're interested in better understanding how and why, the sportsbooks limit individual bettors. So so really at sort of the granular level, how they're identifying, you know, customers, average individual customers and and, you know, making those decisions on whether or not to to limit, players.

Shane Mercer [00:05:42]:

And, you know, some of the commissioners say that they understand, you know, that sportsbooks may not wanna talk about how and why they go about limiting, individual bettors and are suggesting maybe having a behind, closed doors kind of meeting, with the different operators. But I think on the surface, this is a, you know, it's it's nice to see a regulator kind of taking this approach. It'll be really interesting to see what happens when the sportsbooks do go before them. But, Pace, just your your reaction overall to to hearing about this.

Andrew Pace [00:06:17]:

Well, it's it's just like such a, like, oh my god. Finally. You know? So I think they also are asking for people to submit their stories Yes. To us to an email that you can essentially say, like, hey. This is what happened to me, and this is what they said or this is what they claimed. And and the thing is is, like, it is a tricky discussion. Like, I don't wanna be, like, naive to that. You know, we as sports betters that profit over the long term require sportsbooks to be profitable in order to continue to play on them.

Andrew Pace [00:06:45]:

And, you know, there are sort of revolving themes that come up on this podcast, things like, you know, WinBet and FoxBet, no longer, being in business and potentially who could follow suit next, in that category. So we don't like to see that. We want those books to succeed, and and because of the fact that, you know, we crush them. So there is some sort of middle ground here. And then, of course, you have the pinnacles and the bookmakers that have been operating with sharp action that don't limit winners for years years, decades. Right? So, you know, there there is sort of a middle ground here, and I think one of the things that it it kind of points to is fair play across the board. And I think that that would imply a losing player, you know, not being given increased limits, not being given access to deposit certain amounts of money, and potentially not even getting some of the crazy promotions that they might get that encourage them to continue to play. Do I think that is is good for the profitability of a sports book? No.

Andrew Pace [00:07:45]:

But it would be something that would be considered fair and responsible. The flip side to that is players like us can't be expecting to wager 5 figures on one market at one time because we are exposing those sportsbooks to a level of pain and discomfort that's causing us to cover the losses of potentially 100, if not thousands of players in just one click. So on from our side, we have to have a realistic view of things where we go, hey. You know what? Maybe a world of fair and fair even play across the board means that the the limit might be closer to a 4 figure, you know, a $1,000 a bet or $500 a bet type figure. But I know, Tramp, as you've sent me some pretty freaking crazy bet slips over over the years here that we've been working together. And, like, I think I would ask you the question because if I was sitting here and I was like, hey. I've got DraftKings. I've got FanDuel.

Andrew Pace [00:08:44]:

I've got BetMGM. I've got Bet 365. You know, the list goes on and on. And I can bet $500 at each of those and and get those spins in and potentially get a total of, say, 25100 to maybe 5,000 across 10 books in on one market or one game. How would you feel about that given some of the bet sizes that you put in?

TAW Goodman [00:09:07]:

That's a good question. I mean, you know, I'll I'll say this. I've seen some books, do that. Right? I've seen some books give those kind of limits. Like last night, we were watching the college basketball finals. Right? And you could see that on something that big, the they were giving more, higher bet limits on something like that. Like, it's the finals of college basketball. The handle on that's so huge, and so you see that.

TAW Goodman [00:09:32]:

So, I mean yeah. I mean, it's part of it. I understand there's gonna be some give and take. I wouldn't I don't think I don't know that that's I don't know. Yeah. It'd be great that there is a minimum. Right? And I don't know what that is, but also wouldn't wanna, you know, only be able to bet $500 on something isn't necessarily, what I'm looking for either.

Andrew Pace [00:09:57]:

Right. Right. And I think that's that's exactly it. Right? Like, finding some sort of middle ground, but, like, I know, Shane, you asked me an initial question. And when it when it all comes down to it, someone's looking at it. That's extremely positive news. At this stage, it's a a a well a very welcomed step in the right direction.

Shane Mercer [00:10:18]:

I wanna I wanna pick up on a point that you kinda made there about how we need the sportsbooks, you know, to to maintain a certain level of of financial viability, Because, you know, you kinda make a great point there that if, you know, if you're gonna be putting down, you know, 5 figures on something and so is Ty and so are some of the other big, bettors within the inplayLIVE community, and, you know, there's obviously many others out there too. You know, that that sportsbooks might not be able to handle that kind of sharp action. And and so there's just a great reminder of it here that was sort of part of the coverage of what was, being, what's taking place in Massachusetts. And this, is a guy, Jeff Zucadny here, and and he's somebody who covers the space. And he just posted this, a couple weeks ago, just sort of here's DraftKings annual reminder to investors that they limit sports betting customers, but a warning to those investors that lawmakers in in the various jurisdictions in the various states might not let them do it. And it's sort of this this warning to investors to kind of say, hey. You know, if we can't do this, this is gonna be a major problem for us. And and just to give you a sense of some of the language they're using here, you know, we believe this practice is beneficial overall because if it were not possible, betting options would be restricted globally, and limits available to customers would be much lower to insulate overall risk due to the existence of a small segment of highly sophisticated syndicates and algorithmic bettors or bettors looking to take advantage of errors and omissions on our platform.

Shane Mercer [00:11:46]:

We believe virtually all operators balance taking reasonable action from all customers against the risk of individual customers significantly harming business viability. We cannot assure you that all state legislation and regulators will always allow operators to execute limits at the individual customer level. So a really sort of, you know, clear explanation here to everybody who's invested in DraftKings that says, look, guys, we need to be able to limit bettors. If we can't, we may not have a business here.

Andrew Pace [00:12:22]:

Yeah. That's wild. I think, honestly, a lot of what's listed in there, I I view that as positive because I I read it in the way of going, hey. They know what they are doing could be viewed as unethical. They know that what they're doing could be regulated upon. And then, again, like, I I'm not naive to the fact that there has to then be some sort of middle ground, to figure things out. But at the same time, to a to a sports book like Bet 365 or DraftKings, they're offering certain things to draw people in as a competitive advantage. And if they lose money on that over time, why wouldn't you just make some changes to to said market? Remove it, correct it, whatever the case may be.

Andrew Pace [00:13:02]:

Instead, they look at it as, oh my god. If we can't, you know, get rid of these players, like our profitability, which by the way right now is still is still negative, our profitability is at risk.

Shane Mercer [00:13:15]:

Yeah. I mean, it's at significant risk. Like you said, they're still negative. And imagine if they couldn't limit guys like you, pace and guys like Kenny and Taw. Right? It would just be, you know, I think we would see them going bankrupt pretty quickly. But, TAW, I wanna ask you because you're in the states and give us your sort of viewpoint as to what's happening in terms of regulation, across the various states. Is this something that you think could catch on among amongst other regulators where they're gonna sort of start, you know, calling the sportsbooks up and saying, hey. We need some kind of explanation as to why you're limiting customers at the individual

TAW Goodman [00:13:48]:

level. I think all of this, going back to your original question of pace, and now to me, it's all part of the progress. Right? Process, which is progress. It started out like these states, they're hit with, oh, we're legalizing gambling, sports betting now, you know, and we wanna get some of this tax money. Right? And they're just doing everything they can and who you gotta think about it from their perspective. It's not like there's a bunch of sports bettor lobbyists, right, that are out there saying, hey. You need to make sure you do this, this, and this if you're gonna have this. No.

TAW Goodman [00:14:18]:

They've got these huge companies with huge budgets that are out there and it's like, hey. We wanna bring our sportsbooks here. Let us make the rules for you and tell you how they're gonna do it in these other states. And that's what they've started with. Right? And now the next step is they've started to see increase in their issues with responsible gaming. Right? Like, I'm sure I haven't looked at those statistics. I'm sure they've gotten a lot more calls to their, you know, those one eight hundred numbers about gambling issues since sports betting has become legalized. Right? And they're starting to see that.

TAW Goodman [00:14:48]:

Now for the first time this week, I saw something in my local news, and it was really just a republication of a news article from Colorado where it was, like, I got some guy who was, like, I got limited to $15 bet on fanatics. Right? And that had been published. Like, my local news had put it in their website, right, for whatever reason. I'm sure it was a, you know, CBS somewhere else and they just picked it up, but I'm seeing that in my news. So I I think there's a long way to go. I don't I do think that some point we'll reach that. I don't know how close that is. I think right now, they're probably in an education standpoint.

TAW Goodman [00:15:25]:

Right? And it's gonna take one state to say, hey. This is what we're going to do. After probably a year, 2 years of educating themselves, and then maybe it starts to catch on state to state. But its a speculation.

Shane Mercer [00:15:38]:

Yeah. You know

Shane Mercer [00:15:42]:

You hope it catches on, but it is a tough market to operate with. And it it's it's not easy for these sportsbooks to turn a profit. And we're seeing evidence of that sort of, I think, regularly now. We here in Ontario, from my viewpoint, you know, a bet a a book that went under about a year ago or or left our market. I shouldn't say it went under. It left our market was was CoolBet. Then, now most recently, just this past month in March, we saw, Unibet completely exit the market. And I think even just today on our on our Discord channel, we saw somebody posting, about Bette Regal, and it looks like they're closing up shop.

Shane Mercer [00:16:14]:

And so we're we're constantly sort of so we are seeing a lot of these sportsbooks finding it difficult to operate, and these and they're still able to limit winning sports bettors. So so even with that, it it is very difficult. Okay. I wanna move on to to the next topic here because it's sort of in the same line, but it's this idea of, Roga. Alright? And I'm everybody out there is probably, what are you talking about? Well, this is called, the Responsible Online Gaming Association. And so what we have here is a whole bunch of operators banding together to allegedly promote responsible gaming. And I say allegedly because I I just, you know, we talk about it all the time here. And if you go to their websites, you go check out their sportsbooks and you see the responsible, gambling messages they have there, they overall just lack substance and and they're not promoting the kind of responsible, betting that that we would promote here on the show and that, you know, we promote within the within the inplayLIVE community.

Shane Mercer [00:17:16]:

So it's called, yes, the Responsible Online Gaming Association. And, the operators that have come together here are are the big ones. We got BetMGM, Bet365, DraftKings, Fanatics, FanDuel, Hard Rock, and Penn Entertainment. And they're all coming together to say that they're gonna share information with each other about problem gamblers. K? This is how they're how they're putting it out there. This is the kind of PR spin that we're seeing, and I'm concerned that that that that sharing of information isn't going to be only about problem gamblers. I think it could very easily be information sharing when it comes to sports bettors that are problems for these books. You know, winning sports bettors and sharing information, you know, about who they've limited, where, and why.

Shane Mercer [00:18:13]:

You know, I I don't think, you know, that that that that is something that, you know, I this could very much be a a ruse of of sorts, and I'm just very skeptical I think

Andrew Pace [00:18:32]:

I think, like, if you have consenting adults that enter into anything to do with making a decision, for themselves, be that going into a liquor store, buying a bottle of alcohol, be that entering at an actual physical casino, a brick and mortar casino, or playing in a game online. There's risks associated with all the things that I just listed that could have, you know, a negative impact on on people. And I think that because of that, you know, the awareness that needs to be associated, with using or engaging in those type of activities is important. Like, I think about, you know, being in high school and a pack of cigarettes, you know, having, like, a really scary image on it of, like, some lady's teeth, like, falling out of her face. And it's like, Jesus, that's kinda scary. And it's like a law in Canada that you had to have that there. But at the end of the day, you know, someone's still making the decision. Granted, they probably don't view that as a decision that they they, you know, necessarily want to be making, but they make that decision to to pull pull the cigarette out anyways and and smoke it and, and go from there.

Andrew Pace [00:19:32]:

Right? So, like, this whole idea of this this organization that number 1 sounds like some sort of final boss that you would play in a video game or something like Ta and I would use on our hair to try to restore our hairline. It it sounds evil. Like, genuinely, like, it sounds like it is evil. And if it sounds evil, it probably is. Do do problem gamblers need sportsbooks to come together to protect them? Like, that's the actual question. Like, think of it from the highest level imaginable. Do we know someone in our network, in our industry that that is a problem gambler? And then from there, if we were to ask them, do you believe that Bet 36 65, BetMGM, and all these other major sportsbooks coming together is going to be something that's going to protect them from their addiction? If the answer to that question is yes, then I'd be like, okay. Well, I guess there's some pa a positive to this.

Andrew Pace [00:20:31]:

But we know how these books operate, and we know what it is that they are trying to do. They want to limit winners. And the topic that we just talked about, it's like you can't have both. You can't form, like, this conglomerate conglomerate where you're sharing all of our information. Encourage us not to use offshores and encourage the state to further regulate and ban that style of betting, which is something that they're very focused on as well. And then say, oh, now you have nowhere to play because you won some money off of us be and we've shared the information across the board. You can't have it both ways.

Shane Mercer [00:21:06]:

Yeah. TAW, you know, you touched on the the betting lobby in the US and how it's it's growing in strength. I mean, to me, this looks like it's just, you know, building up more of that muscle.

TAW Goodman [00:21:20]:

Yeah. I mean, I think that they're in a position now where I mean, I don't know. You'd like to go into this thinking that they mean well. Right? I mean, sure. There's they they've said they're putting, I think, $20,000,000 together to put this thing forward. They're saying that this the people who are collecting this information will be an independent clearing house, I think, is the the terminology they use. But, you know, just like we saw from what DraftKings have said, what we're seeing in Massachusetts, I mean, it's hard to believe they're not also starting, you know, prepping for a a war, so to speak, on their end of things. Right? And Totally.

TAW Goodman [00:21:58]:

Know, putting themselves in a position to defend any way they can. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:22:02]:

Well said. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:22:04]:

On this topic of, responsible, betting, responsible gambling, whatever you wanna call it, Pace, you recently were, on the news in Canada talking about the banning of celebrities in sports betting advertising. And, you know, that's something that that is is now in effect in on in Ontario specifically, not not across country, but in Ontario, the sportsbooks can't use athletes, to promote sports betting. But but they can still use athletes to promote responsible gambling. And so, I wanna just, share this one, with with everybody, with all of our audience, out there because I thought this was, pretty interesting here when I when I first saw this one pop up, and and it's it's a nice way to kind of sidestep the rules.

Andrew Pace [00:22:56]:

Did you know BetMGM has responsible gambling tools so you don't get carried away? I never get carried away. No. There were the bobbleheads and the playoff beer. Joey's ready. Well, those tools could really help. Don't forget about the backyard rank. Yeah. These tools are pretty great.

Andrew Pace [00:23:19]:

BetMGM is committed to making gambling safe and fun with responsible gambling tools so you don't get carried away.

Shane Mercer [00:23:24]:

Alright. So there it is. You know, again, BetMGM with a clever witty ad. BetMGM probably puts out the best ads. I I gotta say. They they crush it when it comes to the ad game, and they do a very effective job at leveraging celebrities and athletes in these hilarious ads. But here we go. We've got, Connor McDavid, can't be used to promote sports betting anymore in Ontario.

Shane Mercer [00:23:49]:

So instead, hey. Let's have him promote responsible gambling in Ontario. And he we've already he's probably already signed the contract, and he's probably committed to a certain, you know, number of years or a certain number of of, ad spots or both. And they're like, what are we gonna do? Hey. Let's get them to do our our responsible gambling. But, you know, Pace, you were you were on the news talking about this very idea. Are you at all surprised to sort of see this very quick event from BetMGM?

Andrew Pace [00:24:15]:

So there's there there's sort of a philosophy when it comes to regulation or or red tape associated with people wanting to do a certain thing that they were previously able able to. And, like, a really good example is taxation. So if you enter an extremely high, tax bracket in a a certain state, province, country, whatever the case may be, studies show that people that are in those very high tax brackets, they spend time, energy, money, and resources to then find loopholes or ways to get around said red tape to then keep their tax bracket consistent. Whereas if the taxes were potentially lower, they will the the the argument is that they would spend less time focusing on loopholes and more time focusing on, their lives, their businesses, whatever the case may be. That can lead to a, b, c, and d. I feel like what we just watched is such a good example of that in this industry. So BetMGM kinda laughs and goes, hey, Ontario. You said I can't use Connor McDavid Connor McDavid and Austin Matthews for these things, but, we can now use them in this way.

Andrew Pace [00:25:25]:

So they throw out the responsible thing with their site, with their logo, with their brand. They fire a couple jokes in there, and the carried away is the version of saying, like, it was kind of funny and cool to get carried away, which implies, of course, that that's what that person will do with sports betting itself. So, credit BetMGM for a creative way to get around the regulation. And, you know, the the regular the the regulators in Ontario throwing that throwing that in there, I mean, you know, they they did they started to take steps, but, you know, here here is the product of those steps. It's it's the sports book still still pressing on. It isn't like Connor McDavid's doing what who's the quarterback from the Arizona Cardinals, played in arena football? Kurt Warner? Kurt Warner. It's not like Kurt Warner who is actually the face of a responsible gaming, you know, sort of commissioner community. It's very different.

Shane Mercer [00:26:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I I like that, you know, don't get carried away.

Andrew Pace [00:26:26]:

but it's a lot of fun to get carried away.

Andrew Pace [00:26:28]:

Right?

Shane Mercer [00:26:29]:

That's kind of the the underlying message there. Right? Yeah. You know, TAW, what's it look like when you throw on the TV in the states? You know? We're this this is sort of, you know, very Canada specific here, but I'm assuming that it's just a complete free for all down there. And you're seeing every athlete, every celebrity endorsing some sports book, and and it's getting just shoved in your face everywhere you go.

TAW Goodman [00:26:49]:

Yeah. I mean, and it has been for several years. Right? I mean, since 2019. And, Yeah. I mean, it just is that way. I I think we've probably said it before. I mean, I think they can spend some time on something a little more important than celebrity endorsements. Right? Totally.

Shane Mercer [00:27:10]:

Yeah. Well, you know, that that that it works, though. Right? And it it certainly reaches and, you know, I think a big focus pace when you were on was was how it reaches young people. Right? And and, you know, perhaps us, you know, being a little bit a little bit older, you know, and and, you know, not not necessarily as impressionable, or as influenced by by athletes and celebrities. But but younger people certainly are, and I know I I definitely was when I was younger. You know? Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:27:36]:

Shane, I got, Shane, I got a closet full of Steph Curry kicks, man. I got Brady bobbleheads, rings. Like,

Andrew Pace [00:27:46]:

I think I think TAW got, like a pretty pretty sick, autograph Peyton Manning jersey. Like, you know, we're young at heart, and and this stuff, it does work. Like, it is effective. If you love Connor McDavid, studies show that you're, like, exponentially more likely to wager on BetMGM than any other sports book because you are a Connor McDavid fan. Not only will that person validate the product when you watch said advert adversement, and this is separate from sports betting, It's just celebrity endorsements in general. The the they provide validation, but separately of that, someone that doesn't see the ad, followers of that person in any capacity, be that social media or actual fanship, you reached your arm into all of those people, almost instantly because what happens is is and this happened to me as a Tom Brady fan. Hey. Did you see the Tom Brady, I think it's BetMGM too, isn't it.

Shane Mercer [00:28:46]:

Yep.

Andrew Pace [00:28:47]:

Did you see the Tom Brady BetMGM ad on the Super Bowl? Because they know I love Tom Brady. So all of a sudden, that reach came out to me without even intending to it because they know I'm a fan of that person. Right? So, yeah, it's effective.

Shane Mercer [00:29:01]:

Yeah. Alright. We are fans. At least, TAW, you and I are. Pace, I don't know how much of a fan you are of mixed martial arts. But if you are a fan of mixed martial arts, this is a massive week. It's UFC 300 this weekend. And to think that the sport started when we were kids.

Shane Mercer [00:29:24]:

Right? Like, this is something that we saw the inception of this. I can't say that for any of the other big major sports. Right? But this is something that we saw created from the ground up, and here we are at UFC 300. And, I wanna just kind of elicit some, you know, ways to go about betting on the UFC that isn't just throwing darts. And and before we get into that, I just have to give a shout out. I get to a guy within our community who calls UFC. He this is mostly pregame, but big shout out to Vice Wright, Tim, who gives us a lot of winning picks inside the inplayLIVE community, when it comes to UFC. His picks are straight fire, and and big shout out to him and for everything he does.

Shane Mercer [00:30:10]:

But, Ta, I know that you are a, that you enjoy placing wagers on the UFC and other mixed martial arts as well. What advice would you give out there to people who, you know, maybe, you know, haven't looked at it very closely or maybe they love UFC and mixed martial arts kinda like I do, but never really quite knew how to bet on it. 1st piece of advice, if you,

TAW Goodman [00:30:32]:

you know, might consider joining inplayLIVE and somebody can tell you, the kind of wagers they like on, MMA. 2nd piece, is if you're just watching this, and you're like, oh, I wanna bet on the UFC fight. Set a budget. Right? You know what I mean? If you're typically the way I bet on UFC is more recreational than I do on anything else. I still try to make money on it, but it's I'm certainly not I don't know as much about UFC as I do the NFL or college basketball or, a lot of things. So set a budget. Right? You know, you can watch a UFC fight and, you know, it it's kinda like playing if you're just out and you're just wanting to gamble on it, set a budget like you would if you're going to the casino or something like that. Right? That's another way to handle it if you're just trying to have fun with that.

TAW Goodman [00:31:19]:

But, you know, the way I like to do it, it's the only sport I parlay anything in. I don't parlay any sports. I think that the UFC inherently big favorites win more often than not, and you can parlay multiple big favorites together to kinda put together, and that's my system of of of getting multiple fights together to kind of enjoy the entire card. That's one way to to do that. And there's plenty of fights in this card and plenty of big favorites.

Shane Mercer [00:31:53]:

Yeah. Yeah. I just pulled up the card here, and, I mean, look. There's some really great fights on this card that just look like from a pure entertainment aspect. Like, it it should be, you know, a a night full of a lot of action. But, I I like that you brought up, you know, what you do for the for the parlays because I gotta say it's not something that I ever did before. And, I I don't do much pregame. And I guess when it comes to UFC, it's hard to call it maybe pregame, but, you know, before the before the fight starts kind of betting.

Shane Mercer [00:32:24]:

But, once you sort of, you know, showed the community that structured parlay that you do, it's something that I kind of got into a little bit, and it's something that I kind of do on a regular basis now. And I gotta say, it's a very effective way to have fun watching the fights. You know, I'm already interested in it, but, also, it's it's been somewhat profitable. I haven't lost money betting on UFC because of that and the way that it's structured in in this sort of pyramid kind of, way. So, I I really appreciate you kinda sharing that with the community because it's something that I've, built off, myself. And, you you know, the the idea that, yeah, a lot of a lot of favorites typically do it, and that's not gonna be necessarily the case for UFC 300 here when you have Sure. This kind of a card where it's, you know, we got a lot of big names. Right?

TAW Goodman [00:33:14]:

Yeah. So another thing I would say about it is keep in mind it's like any other sport. Right? If you're gonna be live betting the UFC, maybe you're watching, like, oh my gosh. He's really killing him and you're getting really good odds. Keep in mind you're delayed. You're not seeing this live. Right? And that's really important in the UFC where a takedown or a knockdown or a submission can change the fight instantly. So it's really important to to take things like that into consideration if you are betting on the UFC fights in your live betting.

TAW Goodman [00:33:42]:

Just make sure you know exactly what's happening. But one of the other things I like to do, live betting UFC, is look at all the lines and find those outliers just like we would for other things. Right? Find the the webs the the the books that have out outlier lines and is there value? Is there not value? And make that assessment.

Shane Mercer [00:34:03]:

Pace, do you do any MMA betting? And if you were betting live on MMA, what might that look like?

Andrew Pace [00:34:10]:

Well, I I could give you guys a little backstory, actually. So, I had a joke running with my buddies. I actually love throwing the fights on, and we we, like, created a we said we were gonna create a book on how to bet UFC. And, like, we assigned scores to the people as they walked out and we saw them. So this was like, we don't know who they are. We don't know anything anything about them at all. So we'd say, you know, where are they from? Like, if they're from Brazil, they get an extra point. Like, how scary do they look? How tall are they? Like, you know, how angry are they coming out on you know, someone throws a front flip or back flip down in the ring.

Andrew Pace [00:34:45]:

Like, we'd give them bonus points, and then we'd we'd bet on them. And this was our quote, unquote system for lack of a better term. It was just pure entertainment, pure degenerate betting. And, I don't I don't know if we ever won a bet or a card or

Andrew Pace [00:34:56]:

we just lost everything. Right? But we've that's kind kind of kind of

Andrew Pace [00:35:00]:

the jokes behind it. Right? But then when we launched inplayLIVE, you know, people would be like, oh, Pace, do do you do UFC? And I'm thinking to myself, like, there's a lot of things that I kinda got thrown into a little bit where I was really good at a couple of things, and that kinda formed our skeleton or foundation of what it is that we were doing. But then, yeah, like, I'm like, jeez. You know, people are wanting some UFC stuff. I tried to I tried to do some stuff. And then, yeah, Tim came along, and, he just basically said like, hey, man. I'm big UFC guy, and he had had a bunch of success with the community. And, he's kinda done things, you know, ever since that that time.

Andrew Pace [00:35:36]:

And when you say, like, hey. Do you bet on UFC? Like, I'll tail some of his picks sometimes if it's a really, you know, kinda entertaining, sort of sort of card. But what I have seen is from the time that I first sub described of me just trying to handicap games based on how angry looking someone was to, to today, there was actually a lot more to bet on, back then. And I think one of the reasons for that is because books were ridiculously vulnerable with UFC. Because in the middle of the round, you could still continue to wager anything from, will it finish in that round, how it will finish in that round, will it go the distance, will it not, when will it end. Like, everything that you'd see in a pregame menu, they were still being offered live, and I think that that created ridiculous amounts of vulnerability. I remember, I can't remember who the fighter was, but I remember a major UFC card where I actually wagered on the fight to go to the go the distance. It was a 3 round fight.

Andrew Pace [00:36:35]:

And in the 1st round, the guy literally almost died. Like, the fight should have been called. There's blood everywhere. And I think to go the distance before the fight started was like normal juice, kinda like a minus 110 type wager. And after this sort of bloody affair and and beating that got that got smacked down, it went up to 12 point o to go to the disc to go the distance. And I looked at it from the side of, if this guy just survived this, he can survive anything. So sure enough, I I actually cashed that wager. And that was certainly an opportunity where I was like, I didn't know much about the sport, but just thinking that way, I was like, damn.

Andrew Pace [00:37:08]:

The books were vulnerable there, and their algorithm was was just so, so wrong in that spot. If anything, it's more likely to go the distance having had someone survive something just so catastrophic and physical. So do I bet on it? No. Not really. But do I enjoy it as a fan? Absolutely. And it's been, like, a real pleasure watching, Tim actually, you know, go through some struggles as well, but really come out as, like, a a a really prominent and successful handicapper of of the sport. So I think, yeah, I think people really look forward to that. And if you're not a member of inplayLIVE, you know, you can you can dive in and you get a you get a a card for every single, you know, not just a big card like UFC 300.

Andrew Pace [00:37:49]:

You you get a card that over the course of course of time has proven to be, like, I mean, Shane, you track it all ridiculously profitable.

Shane Mercer [00:37:57]:

Yeah. It's just nuts. And so, again, I gotta remind everybody, 'BEHINDTHELINES', all caps, is the promo code if you wanna join. And and, you know, Viceroy Tim's, picks are just, are are just, you know, tip of the iceberg when it comes to to calls made. But, from a pregame standpoint, yeah, he it's kinda like him and Schroeder, you know, for for our pregame guys. And, he he just crushes it.

Andrew Pace [00:38:21]:

The other thing too I'll say about what you guys were referencing with the parlor, you kinda talk about the entertainment side of things and, like, a big fight with a big card. And then a guy like Trampus who's checking out some of the fights, you know, maybe he doesn't like a certain favorite, maybe he does like one more, and builds together this this parlor that sounds like, Shane, that you're not losing on over the course of time, which is a really positive thing. That's a great way to recreationally have bedding entertainment associated with something that is also responsible. Like, if you simply put that in and you don't wager for the rest of the night, what a fun way to enjoy, like, a night with, the fights on. Yeah. So I think that's, like, from a responsible and entertainment sort of gambling side of things that that maybe doesn't have positive expected value. I'm not referencing this particular strategy or UFC parlays in general. Just I I'm more so referencing parlays as a whole, a a good way to enjoy it.

Shane Mercer [00:39:21]:

Yeah. It's it's a it's a ton of fun. But, also and, TAW, I'm sure you can speak to this. It's a great way to butter books. I always like, if I open up a new book, I'm like, oh, it's Saturday. My my UFC structure parlay is going on that book.

TAW Goodman [00:39:36]:

Right.

Andrew Pace [00:39:38]:

Smart.

Shane Mercer [00:39:38]:

Yeah. I I'm sure that, you know, you you you've done that quite a bit, Taz, as you roll through books, quite a bit and, you know, need to need to get that butter in there.

TAW Goodman [00:39:48]:

Yeah. I enjoy betting UFC. Enjoy placing my bets at lots of websites, whoever will take my action, and, enjoy making money at the end of the day. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:39:58]:

Can can I actually ask you a question, TAW? Because you you you don't call a ton of live MMA, but you definitely have called some. Have you noticed, like, the regression in markets over the last sort of, I don't know, 5 years, let's say, number 1. And number 2, I know you talked about outlying lines. What what are you looking for if you do BetLife?

TAW Goodman [00:40:21]:

So, break that down one at a time. I'd say in the the United States and the regulated markets in the last 5 years, those lines have pretty much been the same. I don't think they've changed a lot in the last 5 years. They've they've not had those. I don't think there's any place where I can bet to go to distance or anything like that because they're vulnerable. Right? And maybe they up on that early on. My real passion well, I'm I've always watched the UFC a little bit, but not a lot. And to the just like anything else, in 2020 when we lost sports, the UFC continued.

TAW Goodman [00:40:53]:

Right? And it was still and it was like, this is something I can bet. This is something I enjoy and enjoyed a whole lot. So to the live betting UFC, you know, there's any number of things. If you know anything about the fighters going in, you know, maybe they get off to a slow start. Right? Maybe you know that about a fighter every time, and you see the odds change. But, you know, it's a 5 round fight. And, you know, he's a he picks up as the rounds go on. Things like that, are things to look at.

TAW Goodman [00:41:22]:

You've gotta know stuff about the fighters and, potentially do some tape study and things of that nature, which those are the things you kinda look at. You can't just be like or you can also look at what I mean, some of it is another thing I like to look at is if I think that a sports book has I mean, essentially, the the weird thing about MMA is it's closed scoring. Right? You don't know if you don't know anything about UFC or MMA, you don't know who won that round. Right? It's subjective. And so, like, 2 judges can say, well, this guy won and another guy won it, but you don't know until the end. And so the sportsbooks are basically judging it as well. Right? And sometimes you can see that maybe they don't recognize something. You know, maybe a point was taken away, or maybe a point is about to get taken away.

TAW Goodman [00:42:15]:

Or maybe that's really a 108 round we just saw instead of a 109 round, and the sportsbooks aren't accepting that. Or maybe we have this big underdog who just won 2 rounds, and there's only one round left unless this guy finishes him. It's It's only way he's gonna lose. Right? And so those kind of things are things I kinda look at live. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:42:33]:

Yeah. I guess too, like, a card like this one coming up where you talk about having big favorites. Of course, all the big favorites could win, but at the same time, like, as sports bettors we know, like, underdogs win all the time. And you you know, it's kinda like the whole March Madness. I'm gonna bet every underdog strategy thing, right, where you go, you just need one to break even in a lot cases. You might have, like, this big, you know, 6 point o type type payout that that pays for 5 or 6 losses and and gets you back to even. But if you're scoring things and you recognize that this favorite is actually being beat and they were, like, an 8.0 or 10.0, you know, plus 900 type pregame underdog, you can sometimes get the opportunity where they potentially are up heading into the 3rd round, and you're still getting a good line on this big underdog because of how skewed the, right, like, the early the early line or the closing line was. And I I I mean, how often are you betting in the middle of the round, or is it all between the round?

TAW Goodman [00:43:39]:

It's I mean, I'd say half the bets are in the middle of the round.

Andrew Pace [00:43:43]:

Yeah. See and even then, like, I've noticed a lot of books closed completely during the round.

Andrew Pace [00:43:47]:

Once the rounds are actually on. You actually have to wait for the break to get a wager in. And by then, you may have missed the opportunity.

TAW Goodman [00:43:55]:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And but that's that's where the advantage is. Right? When those books are staying open, they're still vulnerable because they they I mean, how does an algorithm factor in? Oh, this guy got knocked down, you know, and then so it's a human. A lot of human interaction in that. And if they're you you you watching it yourself, if you have any edge, you can kind of pick up on some of those things.

TAW Goodman [00:44:17]:

And so that's why it is mid round sometimes.

Shane Mercer [00:44:20]:

Right.

Andrew Pace [00:44:20]:

Cool.

Shane Mercer [00:44:21]:

It it just happens so fast. Right? The action is so, so quick all the time, and, you know, your your moment could come pass and come back again, and it could be all within, you know, 15 to 20 seconds in in MMA. But, I wanna move on to another individual sport, one that is a lot slower than UFC, perhaps a lot less physical. And I think it's one that we all enjoy, and there is a very, very significant event happening in it this week. It is the Masters. Pace, give me your lock. Who's gonna win the masters?

Andrew Pace [00:44:59]:

I actually so in 2019, I I put I picked 2 golfers to win the masters, and I picked Tiger Woods, and I picked Brooks Koepka. And I cashed out of Brooks on, like, 16th hole, or maybe it was the 14th hole, and then Tiger went on to win. So I had a really good tournament then. One of my biggest and earliest bets was I took, Bubba Watson at, like, 56 to 1 to win the masters, whatever year it was that he he won twice. I don't know. Whatever the 1st year was. So I was pretty pretty stoked on that, but, I've kinda stopped doing that. That was a little bit more recreational and gambly, I would say.

Andrew Pace [00:45:34]:

I don't have any locks, but what I will say is, like, golf has just been under I'm not a I don't follow golf all that much, but golf has just, like, really been under, like, a a crazy amount of turmoil with, you know, the LIV and everything like that. And the Masters, I feel like, is just this holy grail of sporting events where, you know, you see guys like Freddie Couples coming back and playing still, and doing well in the last decade. He you've seen him atop the leaderboard a couple times, heading into Saturday. And, there's a certain type of player that plays that course well. And, obviously, everyone gets really excited about the Tiger Woods hype. Like, can he do it again? He kinda already checked that box, I feel, in 2019 when when he did do it again. But, yeah, I mean, it's it's a really freaking fun weekend of golf, and it is the thing that brings everyone together with all the turmoil that the leagues have seen where you you get the best of the best, and there's only 1 masters. And and in the grand scheme of things, there's 4 majors throughout the year.

Andrew Pace [00:46:34]:

People get really excited for the majors. There there's nothing like this one.

Shane Mercer [00:46:38]:

No. No. This is this is the one. You know, out of all the majors, this is definitely kind of the the crown jewel, I think. And, you know, you brought up Tiger. He did say this week that he thinks if he puts it all together, he has another green jacket in him. TAW, would you put any money on Tiger Woods? Is there any golfer that you would take to win the masters?

TAW Goodman [00:46:57]:

No. I wouldn't bet any money on Tiger Woods. I like Tiger, always have, but, I wouldn't wanna put my money in harm's way with, Tiger Woods this weekend. I don't know. I'm not a I mean, I'm certainly not a golf pro. I would never go and tell everybody to to bet something. That being said, I'm looking at the list here. And if I was gonna pick somebody on this list, so, like, a mid mid level guy, Alexander Schauffle, 14 to 1 Yeah.

TAW Goodman [00:47:30]:

Or better depending on the site, Maybe a a more of a long shot. I'd look at Will Zalatoris at 45 to 1. So those are, like, 2, like

Shane Mercer [00:47:39]:

Yeah. I will.

TAW Goodman [00:47:39]:

Those are 2, like, you know, very different. I'm not gonna I mean, obviously, Jon Rahm, you know, is a great golfer, could easily win. I think he won last year. Right? Scottie Scheffler won 2 years ago, easily win. Those are gonna be the popular picks. Scottie Scheffler would be your lock. You gotta bet him. Right? You know? But, you know, if I'm picking just a mid level guy, Xander Schauffler, to get it done, and then a long shot, Will's Outdoors.

TAW Goodman [00:48:02]:

He's been better than these majors.

Andrew Pace [00:48:04]:

You know what, Shane? Since you brought this topic up, I I have to say, like, because it's another major thing like UFC 300 where a lot of people are betting.

Andrew Pace [00:48:11]:

Mhmm.

Andrew Pace [00:48:11]:

And there might be some golf pros that would be that would hear what I'm about to say and be like, man, what a freaking moron. He said like, what he said is so wrong. There is nothing I hate more in betting than placing multiple wagers where I can't win all of them. Yeah. And fucking golf cards with 10 winners on them drives me nuts. I and I just came off of a story talking about taking 2 golfers. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:48:37]:

And that's precisely why I got really lucky in the scenario

Andrew Pace [00:48:40]:

that I just painted, but, that's precisely why I I ended up going with 1 of the 2 leaders that day because I hate watching bets fall that I know that they both couldn't have come together. So, like, I'm not saying this is a better way to bet on golf, but I would rather place wagers like 2 balls, you know, one versus the other where I know that I don't require that person to win the tournament, to come through. Or finishes where you go, okay. I really like Brooks Koepka. I really like, Will Zalatoris. I'm gonna take them both to finish in the top 10 or both to finish in the top 20 or something like that where you can actually see it come into fruition, and and win both. Yeah. I hate those multi pick golf cards where you can't win them all.

Andrew Pace [00:49:25]:

Hate em.

Shane Mercer [00:49:31]:

TAW go ahead. You look like you wanted to jump in there. Like, you had something to say.

TAW Goodman [00:49:34]:

You know, it's like anything else, though. I would look for something maybe live, see a guy that maybe Scottie Scheffler comes out, has a bad day 1, you get him day 2 plus, you know, 20 to 1. Right? That'd be something I'd wanna look if I was actually looking to bet something, Somebody I like, and then just like we do with anything else, is there value? There's probably no value on Scottie Scheffler pre tournament. But if he has a bad day 1 and then you watch him and he's birdie in the first two holes on day 2 on Friday, you know, they it's something then. And that's that's the only way I've ever bet golf, is that. Yeah. You

Andrew Pace [00:50:07]:

Well, one of one of the things you can take advantage of, sorry, Shane, is, like, the pin placements and hole scoring. So, like, a really good example of that would be if you have a really, really challenging pin, on day 1, the books may handicap that hole from a hole scoring standpoint based on that day and based on historic data. And all of a sudden, you know, you get great weather or maybe you get some soft greens from, you know, a little bit of moisture and a really good pin placement. And the next day, they might be scoring on that hole or vice versa where players are really struggling to score on a specific hole that they were scoring on on a different day. Those are things that can be capitalized on in real time. The problem with golf, though, from that style of betting or standpoint is you might only be able to snipe the value on that hole for 1 or 2 groups, and then it might be gone. It might not be something that you'll be able to consistently do throughout the entire tournament. So, again, I think with anything that we do, we can talk about like, oh, hey.

Andrew Pace [00:51:00]:

Like, you can do this or you can do that. At the end of the day, you really do have to pick your spots because as a general statement, if there's any sort of blanket strategy across an entire league or sport, it's probably gonna be breakeven at best.

Shane Mercer [00:51:12]:

Yeah. That that's a really good point. I'm glad you brought up weather there, though, because I think that is important if you are placing wagers on on, you know, golfers. Weather, a factor and, what wave are they teeing off in and what time of the day are they teeing off in. Right? Because that could you know, weather will change with the day. So you really wanna, you know, time your you sort of know your forecast and know the timing of your golfers when they're when they're teeing off. I think that's a sort of a a critical piece of information that maybe, goes overlooked, especially if you're just sort of jumping into it for the. Right? If you're just jumping into place bets because of this this big event that that's taking place.

Shane Mercer [00:51:47]:

But, yeah, there there's so much, you know, there there are so many markets that you can take advantage of live, pace. Have you ever considered doing a 4 day livestream of just, the masters?

Andrew Pace [00:51:57]:

We've done. We did it.

Shane Mercer [00:51:59]:

We did it, Shane. 4 straight days of of masters coverage?

Andrew Pace [00:52:03]:

The OG inplayLIVE guys will view this as 4 of the most electric days.

Shane Mercer [00:52:07]:

No way.

Andrew Pace [00:52:08]:

We Bet99. They were they had the whole scoring all wrong, and everyone was helping each other out, and we just we've we've fucking destroyed them.

Andrew Pace [00:52:17]:

Destroyed them.

Shane Mercer [00:52:18]:

No way. That's insane.

Andrew Pace [00:52:19]:

Yeah. Not only that's we destroyed them so much so that it led us to go, okay. How we do that? Again, the markets were gone then. How can we figure this out? Where can we find it? And there still are opportunities, but it it it very much didn't continue because of that. Yeah. It was electric.

Shane Mercer [00:52:35]:

That sounds like it. Damn. I'm I'm upset I missed out on it. TAW, were you there for that? Did you miss it?

TAW Goodman [00:52:41]:

I was not there for that.

Shane Mercer [00:52:42]:

Oh, too bad. Oh, well, couple losers over here.

TAW Goodman [00:52:47]:

Bad bettors. Bad bettors.

Andrew Pace [00:52:49]:

Bad bettors.

Shane Mercer [00:52:49]:

Bad bettors. Bad bettors. Alright, guys. Well, this has been a lot of fun. We covered so much ground, on this episode. I hope everybody out there listening and watching, is able to take at least a couple things away from it. But, a lot of fun, and, just, a heads up for everybody out there listening and watching on YouTube. Next week and and the week after, we've got a couple of great guests lined up.

Shane Mercer [00:53:10]:

I'm not gonna say much more than that, but we've got some really, really impressive guests, lined up.

Andrew Pace [00:53:17]:

Up. So, Pace, looking forward to to talking

Shane Mercer [00:53:17]:

to those guys. And, TAW, thank you so much for joining us to to give us your insight this week. Alright, fellas. Well, until next week, keep beating those bucks. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below.

Shane Mercer [00:53:38]:

And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.