Episode 78

Joe Brennan [00:00:00]:

It's not even just the gaming industry. I mean, consumer web, the amount of money or the amount of data that people give up about, so every day when they pick up this thing. Right? And they they do every I mean, Bill Gates doesn't need to give you a fake vaccine with a chip in it to track you. You're you're already doing it voluntarily. Right? So There you go. There you go.

Shane Mercer [00:00:35]:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the only podcast purifying the sports betting industry. Remember to like, download, subscribe, follow us on all the socials @ inplayLIVE. I'm your host, Shane Mercer. That guy over there, Andrew Pace joining me as always. He's the founder of inplayLIVE, a community of like minded sports bettors dedicated to long term success. And today, fresh off his appearance before the Massachusetts Gaming Commission, we have the executive chairman of Prime Sports and a member of the Sports Betting Hall of Fame, Joe Brennan. Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining us.

Joe Brennan [00:01:13]:

I mean, with a wind up like that, thank you. I mean, I'm honored and humbled.

Shane Mercer [00:01:18]:

Well, we're we're really I I'm really excited to have you here because I like you know, as I was saying just before we got started here, I watched the entire, Massachusetts Gaming Commission meeting from last week, and we're gonna really dive into that. And it's just fantastic to have you here. I thought you did a fantastic job representing sports bettors at that meeting. And, it it was just incredible. But but how do you feel leaving the meeting last week? I'm sure you received a lot of messages of support and that kinda thing.

Joe Brennan [00:01:44]:

I was like a lot of people, of course, it was it was really nice some of the stuff that people said or they wrote on social and everything like that. And I spent about half the day depressed. And the reason is is because, like, back when I used to regularly do those things, like committee meetings and hearings and those kind of things, pre COVID, those were always in person. You know, jacket, tie, you're in some government office or meeting room somewhere. This is the first time I did one virtual. And the reason why it made a difference was is it kinda turned into open mic night, at least our half of the session, and that the chairman, Chairman Maynard, dabbled the session. He said, like, oh, we're here to talk about the other side, ultimate forms of sports betting, and then responsible gaming and some other issues. And he said, but so why don't I just open the mic up here and you guys just jump in? And I'm like, what? You're used to somebody, like, very formally saying to you, like, well, mister Brennan, you know, and then pointing a question at you that it's more of a statement rather than a question, and you get the bat at back.

Joe Brennan [00:02:48]:

I'm sure you guys have seen this either, like, in real life or, in the movies and television. But, what was difficult about that is and, like, I always say this, I said it at the time, responsible gaming is an incredibly important issue. I don't pay lip service to that. But to have immediately a session that was dedicated towards talking about player limiting and the responsible gaming people came in on the secondary topic and basically took off, and they started the 2nd session, I thought was problematic. So I was like, Oh, God, I can't believe I can knock over the nice ladies who are here to talk about problem gambling. This is essentially what I did. They did not knock them over. And they are.

Joe Brennan [00:03:32]:

Yeah. I mean, again, very important work that they do. And what like, they showed up at BetBash. They show up at all these conferences. They're like the, you know, Daniel in the lion's den when they had to go to those things. Me, I got everybody pat me on the back. They come in and, like, oh, it's the, you know, it's the gambling is bad, ladies. Right? Yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:03:54]:

It's tough for them. Yeah. It's tough for them to be then. But in in that kind of situation, I just kinda felt a little off kilter. So I think I need a few more preseason reps before I get out there. But, yeah, it was, it was interesting to be back in the in the political and regulatory.

Shane Mercer [00:04:13]:

Yeah. Well, we're gonna we're gonna dive into into some of the the meeting and and really sort of, you know, eat up some of the meat and potatoes from it. But, before we get to that pace, last week, you were on. You had a little bit of a story about Bet 9 9, and I think you have an update on it before we sort of get into the meeting. Can you share the update?

Andrew Pace [00:04:33]:

Yeah. So we're talking about the how they're sending out that responsible gaming, notice to their players. So I had played on their site for I think it was 26 hours straight that weekend, and I only got information when I was down, but the wagers were pending. I was never actually down. I got a notification. I think it's important to say this past weekend one time where I was up. But what I realized was the volume and frequency of the notification that they send out is strictly based on when you've just placed bets or if you are down so that you get these big red scary numbers saying that you're down constantly. And I hit a point with that account where I was like, okay.

Andrew Pace [00:05:20]:

You guys saw my balances on the show last week. So I got it got it up around 23,000, and they sent out a notice. I think I put 3 of that 23 into play, and they sent out a notice. You're down 3,000 again. And I said it on the stream. I I went bet 99 reality check. I'm like, you guys need a reality check. Like, how are you guys doing with my account? If you keep telling me that I'm down but, anyway, so there's 2 things I wanted to bring up.

Andrew Pace [00:05:44]:

Number 1, they did finally send one out where I was up. But number 2, they specifically correlate when they go out with pending wagers to try to, I guess, scare you, maybe put you on tilt a little bit, in order to, I don't know, make make you look like you're down, I guess, potentially creating some sort of tilt opportunity for the player. So I do not believe that to be a responsible gaming tool.

Shane Mercer [00:06:10]:

Wow. It definitely is a Anything anything like that at Prime, Joe?

Joe Brennan [00:06:15]:

No. First of all, updating in real time? Hell no. We're we're a little more wind up than that. But now I I I kinda wonder that, you know, there's a thing, like, regulators, like, in the different jurisdictions, they all treat, when when you stake a wager differently. Like, you know, New Jersey is a great example. Like, as soon as you stake a wager, that's considered revenue on our part. Like, well, we haven't even settled graded the bet yet. But, you know, if you make a $10,000 wager with Prime that day, it's it and maybe it's for a game that doesn't settle until the following day or it's a futures bet or something.

Joe Brennan [00:06:54]:

That's revenue as far as New Jersey is concerned. They're like, hey. Send us the taxes on that. Yeah. But, so I wonder if that might not to stick up for Bet 9 9. I I've never been on their site. I I I've met a couple of the people, but I've never been on the site. But I wonder if that maybe kinda plays in because you're up in you're in Vancouver, right, Where you're making that okay.

Joe Brennan [00:07:16]:

So that one that one hold. Because I know they're in Ontario, which even I as an American know. Vancouver here, Ontario here. So it wouldn't be that. So I don't know. That's pretty crazy sounding. But who knows? Maybe they've got some like, a a behavioral economist, that's on the staff there, and they've they've figured out, like, the best way to squeeze the money out of you is to keep you in a constant state of, you know, red font panic or something.

Andrew Pace [00:07:44]:

Well, I I mean, that that is a tactic across the industry. It's just I think it was used differently with them. And I was surprised to see over the course of, you know, a couple of weeks where they keep telling me I'm down when I'm not. That was really the surprise. So we brought that up in our episode last week. And then I I feel like to be credible, I have to say that they did in fact tell me I was up in one of the notifications.

Joe Brennan [00:08:08]:

So Well, you mean, one out of how many?

Andrew Pace [00:08:12]:

Oh, gosh. Does dozens. Dozens and dozens. Yeah. Yeah. Like, every every few minutes, they're popping up.

Joe Brennan [00:08:18]:

I mean, again, I I don't know them that well or anything like that. But if you can't do the simple work of letting a player know what his current balance is, why are you in this business? I mean, that just seems like it would undermine credibility pretty substantially. You're probably walking into that one right now. Probably somebody saying like, well, my Prime balance isn't up to date right now. So oh god.

Shane Mercer [00:08:44]:

Oh, okay. Well well, thanks for the update there, and I'm I'm glad Joe brought up a a a behavioral analysis could potentially being involved because, it it sounds like if you were at the MGC or you were listening to the MGC, the Massachusetts Gaming Commission last week, you know, the the soft book operators make it sound like it is all about, behavior. So so don't we just dive into this? And and, guys, bear with me while I I go on a little bit of, maybe a soliloquy here, but I wanna bring our audience really up to speed. I know many of you out there listening and watching, from around the world, may have actually tuned in to the Massachusetts Gaming Commission Council, meeting last week. But but for those of you out there who didn't, I just want to sort of bring you up to speed a little bit on what transpired, and and sort of, you know, give you at least the operator's point of view. So, they, participated in this meeting. This is something we've been covering, very closely here on the show over the last several months. There was a meeting that was supposed to take place.

Shane Mercer [00:09:45]:

They all skipped out on it. The commissioners were quite upset about the whole thing and, they finally got them to, come to the table and it took place last week. Alright. So the meeting was divided into 2 parts. In the first part, we heard from BetMGM, FanDuel, Fanatics, DraftKings, and Caesars. And I think there was someone there from Penn Entertainment who didn't say a word the entire time, but but the others did speak. And, I'll say this about the operators. They did a great job of speaking with one collective voice.

Shane Mercer [00:10:17]:

You know, the the talking points, I I don't know if they coordinated ahead of time, but all of their talking points were were basically exactly the same, and they were all singing from the same hymn book here. Now unfortunately, I felt like that voice disparaged winning sports bettors. They basically said there's a tiny fraction of customers, less than 1%, who belong to nefarious associations. They're involved in syndicate betting. They deploy bots. They courtside. They abuse bonuses, and they basically accused winning bettors of finding a way to cheat, dubbing them advantage players. A term that was thrown around throughout the entire, portion of their side of the meeting.

Shane Mercer [00:11:02]:

They all said they don't limit customers because they win. Instead, they say they limit customers based on betting behavior, which they essentially characterized as bad behavior. Alright, Joe. What do you think? Was this an accurate synopsis of of what the operators told the MGC? Am I on point here?

Joe Brennan [00:11:22]:

A 100% on point. I I think I tweeted out pretty early on, 2 things that I just thought was so clever. That, a, I I thought it was gonna be a really long meeting if you're just gonna have the same people read, you know, compliance and lawyer read off the same public statement. Since yeah, it seems pretty obvious by the result that they colluded before the meeting to make sure that they all had the same talking points. I don't think that 6 disparate parties just suddenly decided that Advantage player was going to be the pejorative of the day. And then just this use of advantage player. It's a nice way of avoiding saying winning player. Right? But it certainly seemed like, at the time, like, if you wanted to have a drinking game while you were watching that meeting, taking a pop every time somebody said advantage player.

Joe Brennan [00:12:17]:

It wasn't just the way that it wasn't just that they said advantage player. It was the way they said it. Right? They just put all sorts of stank on it. Advantage player. You know? Look. And and and I I think I that was one of the points I wanted to make, and I said it directly when I I got off the bat in the the second half of that thing is advantage player is just another way of saying good player. And, you know, what they object to is that players that may know more than they do, and we'll readily admit, I will, Adam will, you know, our head of bookmaking. There are players out there that have better models.

Joe Brennan [00:12:58]:

You know, they have better intelligence. They're better at the they have better information about these markets than we do. So, if you have somebody who has better information, better modeling, when you want their information, well, short of, I don't know, hiring them, which none of these guys want to come to work for us or they already would have. What's the only other way that you can get their information? Well, it's by taking their bets. And instead of worrying about, like, that guy, guy wants to make a $2,000, $3,000 bet on a given market, whether he's sharp or not, use that guy's information to influence how you offer the market to the next 100 people who are coming in behind him. But, yeah, you know, I think you kinda hit it. They're all gonna sing from the same song sheet. They're gonna try and characterize this, that it's just, oh, it's like less than 1%, which I think kinda undermines the financial risk that they put themselves at.

Joe Brennan [00:13:55]:

Well, if it's less than 1% of the players are out there, don't you think your 1,000,000,000 of dollars of public markets, money gives you sufficient cushion to be able to handle that action? Yeah. But and then the other thing is they'd like to portray it as, you know, like, the Spankys and the Billy Walters are, like, Carl Icons of the world, making a, you know, again, a a public markets analogy. Like, they're just these nefarious, you know, corporate raiders with, you know, all this money, and they're just trying to gut us. And what they don't wanna do is they wanna talk about the guy who's, like, betting a couple $100 who strung together 4 or 5 wins. And next thing he knows, he's betting $2 limits because he's shown, that he, you know, he has closing line value, that he's, you know I when the Fanatics, government relations guy you could tell he's a government relations guy because he didn't know anything about marketing, and he didn't know anything about bookmaking, but kind of gleefully said, oh, well, over 50% of the players that we limit, aren't even winners. They're net losers. It's just that they show tendencies that they might win sometimes. Like, what a money shot.

Joe Brennan [00:15:03]:

Holy smokes.

Shane Mercer [00:15:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was pretty clear there. I was thinking, wait a minute. Yeah. Sure, buddy. 50%. That that that but I I will say this.

Shane Mercer [00:15:12]:

When they threw around the 1% number, you know, I I didn't believe them, but it made me feel good. I started thinking of myself. I'm like, wow. Only 1%. Percenter. I'm an elite sports betting here.

Andrew Pace [00:15:26]:

Shane, it's only 1 out of a 100.

Shane Mercer [00:15:27]:

Yeah. Exactly. It's only 1 out of a 100. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Joe, I think you did a fantastic job, explaining the difference and really sort of schooling the commissioners on on the sharp book model and the soft book model. And it almost seemed like the commissioners didn't really understand that there was a sharp book model, that something other than the soft book model even existed.

Shane Mercer [00:15:51]:

Did you get that sense? And were you surprised by that? I I found through their line of questioning that they, you know, they asked you repeatedly, you don't limit winners? Just like

Joe Brennan [00:16:01]:

Oh, yeah. When chairman chairman Maynard just threw a meatball at me. He's like, Joe, under what circumstances would Prime limit a bettor? And when I I said, well, we wouldn't. I mean, god, that, like, set Twitter ablaze. I should have that printed on coffee mugs and T shirts.

Andrew Pace [00:16:19]:

Oh, absolutely.

Joe Brennan [00:16:21]:

A number of people were like, you paid him to do that. I'm like, I wish I had. I feel less guilty about it.

Andrew Pace [00:16:26]:

Its just the truth.

Joe Brennan [00:16:27]:

But look, the truth is they are going to have to go through a sort of education process, because there's not currently any regulated sportsbooks in Massachusetts that are open sportsbooks or Sharp sportsbooks. We're not there. CIRCA's not there. The only ones that would be there are the ones that are gray market operators, and they're not gonna show up to that meeting. And I don't think that the Massachusetts regulators are gonna spend too much time on it, but they ought to consider it, at least, setting aside whether CIRCA or Prime enter that market. I mean, we're interested in it. It has very high upfront sunk costs to enter that market for a smaller company. But for the Massachusetts regulators to consider, well, if these players if sharp players in Massachusetts can't bet with FanDuel, Draft, whatever, where are they betting? And most likely, they're betting with gray market operators, or they're betting on the street.

Joe Brennan [00:17:31]:

People are gonna take their action there. So and that means that there's the the market is operating suboptimally. And from a consumer protection perspective, dangerously, one could say. So I'll give the Massachusetts regulators credit for this, is that they're the 1st regulatory body here to really publicly dive into this. I don't think that they'll be the last, but I also don't think that there's gonna be lightning quick change, in the market regarding this this issue.

Andrew Pace [00:18:09]:

Joe, do you think that the whole way of, like, the Massachusetts thing being, like, online and public and all that kind of stuff, do you think that's positive for the industry as a whole from the standpoint of other regulators having, like, real time access to it, or do you think that that really doesn't matter? Because what I was thinking when they no showed was this is the previous meeting when they all no showed.

Joe Brennan [00:18:32]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:18:32]:

What I was thinking is, well, why the hell would they show when this would all be public and then those states could fall like dominoes? Like, what are your thoughts?

Joe Brennan [00:18:40]:

I actually, I when that happened and I got tipped the day before, said they're not gonna show. And I I couldn't believe it. I'm like, of course, they're gonna show. Just because in the gaming industry here in the US, like, the regulators, they're a really powerful force. So when they didn't show, that was such a that was such disrespect. I've I've never seen that in 25 years of being around this industry, seeing somebody so publicly show up their regulator. Whoever thought that was a good idea, I think it backfired on him because it just put an exclamation point on what we're talking about here. As far as, like, do I think it's gonna affect regulators in other states? Well, yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:19:32]:

Probably. But what I think it affects more is is is bettors in other states. Because what they may start to do is coalesce around this in other markets and say to their regulators, why aren't you doing why aren't you doing this in New Jersey or Ohio or Nevada or other states? Because, obviously, this is a practice that's not limited to Massachusetts. The Massachusetts regulators, mass gaming, has just been incredibly aggressive in looking at a lot of issues, everything from the advertising, bonusing, language, limiting, things like that. And what's interesting is they're a relatively new gaming state. They've only they've had casino gambling in the state for less than 10 years. So and then, obviously, sports betting just in the last couple of years. So to see them being a relatively new regulator and being as curious about this and publicly curious about it, I think, is just as good.

Shane Mercer [00:20:31]:

Based on what you heard during the meeting and and, you know, I'm sort of torn here. I'm not I'm not quite sure what to make of it. But, do you think the MGC is is interested at all in long term sustainability for professional sports bettors, or do you think that their, you know, that that their main objective is to, help out those recreational sports bettors that maybe get, you know, caught up in in the limiting by the soft books?

Joe Brennan [00:21:01]:

I don't think it's 1 or the other. When you're a regulator, you're you're a shepherd. Okay? And they're working both sides, for the operators, for the for the players, the consumers. And then also, you know, they're in the middle. They got into this business because they're collecting taxes on it, so they have interest in this as well. But they're essentially shepherds. I don't think that they start off one way or the other. I don't they clearly I would say, as a practice, generally, they they don't have in their charter.

Joe Brennan [00:21:36]:

Alright? We represent the interests of the of the operators, or we represent the interests of the of the consumers. I think it's more of a, we represent the marketplace. We're the referee. We're the good shepherd. We have to be monkey in the middle on these things and make sure that this market runs optimally from a legal and then we'll say economic performance perspective.

Shane Mercer [00:22:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. You kind of I got that sense from a from a few of them. There's another aspect to to to the meeting that I want to dive into and I really want to sort of get your perspective on it and it's the conversation around, data. So, I want to actually play a clip here, from the meeting, and this is commissioner Eileen O'Brien. And, I'll just play it. It's very short but but we'll just give it a give it a spin here.

Eileen O'Brien [00:22:29]:

Thank you to all coming in. I know sometimes these are uncomfortable conversations. I think they're necessary though. You're talking about perceptions, right, being, you know, inaccurate. And and I certainly and all of us wanna have the information if that's the case. And I think one of the ways to do that also is the data and the stats that you have. So in terms of your conversations with staff, I would like a huge part of that to be them peeling back the layer. Right? To be able to say, alright, this may be the problem area that we need to hone in on or there is no problem area at the end of the day.

Eileen O'Brien [00:23:03]:

Right? But I do think those stats are gonna help staff then advise us on this as well. So I think that staff conversation with you guys has to include some of those specifics.

Shane Mercer [00:23:14]:

Alright. So, Joe, help me out here. Exactly what kind of data do you think the MGC needs to to better inform their decisions, And do you think they'll actually get it?

Joe Brennan [00:23:31]:

I would say optimally, they're getting, their performance data, down to the player transactional level to be able to demonstrate, you know, these patterns, these behaviors that are apparently red flags for the different operators that's causing them to flag people and limit them, so be able to see that for themselves. And I can say that in at least both the jurisdictions that we're currently operating in right now, New Jersey and in Ohio, we do have we we have to give a transactional feed to the state, that they can for audit purposes, so they can see who's betting what and what have you. I think where Commissioner O'Brien and as a side note about Commissioner O'Brien, if you've been watching these MGC hearings that they've had, Commissioner O'Brien throws chin heat all the time. I'm a big fan.

Shane Mercer [00:24:34]:

A big fan. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:24:35]:

Shes a real showstopper.

Shane Mercer [00:24:38]:

Again, I mean, she is she's straight fire. Love her.

Joe Brennan [00:24:41]:

Man, she's she's tough. But, I think for for commissioner O'Brien, I'm I'm gonna guess at what maybe her thought process is. And it it kinda feeds into this they also brought up the the issue of notification of players as to why they win. And that is for audit purposes. Like, okay, well, you're saying you you detect these behaviors. Draw me the data map here. Draw you know, take me through a, b, c based on the data, what you saw here that you reached this collusion, and you're reaching these commitments? And conversely, if there's something that truly is an issue that's allowing bettors to game the system.

Joe Brennan [00:25:26]:

You know, like courtside and got mentioned, how many different tabs? You know, so, alright, well, show us the data that shows, alright, how many how many players are being able to get down ahead of the feeds? Yeah. Because the feed speed was also something that's been we have issues with it. I here's the thing. I don't want anybody to think that I just came in here today so I could jump up and down on Fan King's head, and say what an incredible vessel they are for our industry. Okay? Look. I mean, we last night, we had problems with feeds. You know? They use the same, like, settlement feeds that we have. And these happen to be the official data feeds, NFL and other things, and there's gonna be problems.

Joe Brennan [00:26:09]:

Every day, there are problems. Every day, you gotta kinda get in there and manually adjust things that were settled the wrong way because the NFL's official data feed or somebody's official data feed was incorrect on someone. So I don't want to say that there's perfection out there, and these guys are just screwing it up. But is there the level of, nefariousness that's going on, either with people having faster trading feeds than we have and the other bookmakers have, the court signing piece. So, let's take a look at that. Some of the more nuanced stuff like, oh, well, the player always seems to be coming down on the right side of the line close and things like that. Some of that's gonna be really tough to kind of make the case for, particularly if you have an operator like a fanatics that they're just saying, like, well, you know, it looks like they might have CLV in their favor the majority of times, but we can't tell. And they're even though we're a losing player, and we're just gonna we're not gonna wait around and see if this player's gonna be so some of it's a bit more nuanced.

Joe Brennan [00:27:16]:

There's an in order to do this in a I'd say in a proactive way, for the regulators, that's gonna require an awful lot of, third party analysis of the transactional data that we turn over on every wager that's made, that are date, time stamped, and you've got to compare it to the events data. So it's not a small endeavor that Commissioner O'Brien is suggesting. Is it one that we should be able to do, given the computing power and all the data that is available and all the stuff that we already have to turn over to regulators? Yeah. Is it one that I would, today, wanna start getting into? And we don't have anything to hide as far as limiting players because we don't do it. But the thought of turning over data, getting involved in that kind of, you know, ongoing near real time auditing of transaction so we could justify certain events that we might have. That's that would be difficult. It would be difficult. Not impossible, but would be difficult.

Shane Mercer [00:28:24]:

Right. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm curious to see if if they actually, do it, you know, and and how what they end up turning over and then how much of that actually gets, shared publicly, which, you know, it it could be, you know, all of it. It could be none of it. Who who knows? I wanna play one more clip here. This one comes, from Richard, Schwetz Schwetz. I'm probably pronouncing it incorrect. Schuetz.

Shane Mercer [00:28:49]:

Richard Schuetz, from the American Bettors Voices and, here's a guy of significant experience. So I think also did a fantastic job at at representing, sports bettors, at the meeting. It takes him a little bit to get to a point, but it, ends up being a pretty sharp point. So I won't play a super long clip from him, but, here's Richard, giving the, giving the commissioners a little piece of advice.

Richard Schuetz [00:29:14]:

Never seen anything quite like what is going now, and that is the tail is wagging the dog. You people are regulators. You have the ability to request information in clear, succinct steps and have them provide it to you and have the ability to out of that. And I think that's where as long as you keep talking about that, you're gonna continue to be going around in circles going, what did he say? You you you know? And I absolutely believe you need to just take charge.

Shane Mercer [00:29:44]:

Alright. So basically telling them that, hey. Right now, you know, the the operators are the ones in in control here, and you guys gotta take charge. Do you think that that's that that that's an accurate portrayal?

Joe Brennan [00:29:59]:

I gotta say that when Richard was saying this in real time, I was like, wow. Maybe take a little heed off that pitch there, dude. Especially like, you people. Like, woah. Yeah. He is correct in that look. I started off by saying these guys you know, the regulators are shepherds. They are.

Joe Brennan [00:30:22]:

It's their markets. Now, the level of engagement that they would have to have, and the level of resources that they would have to have to be able to sift through this data credibly and effectively in a near real time basis in their markets, it would be a step up from how they're currently resourced. Nobody has that level of resource. Not Nevada, not New Jersey, not any of the states. So it's while I agree that, like, you know, I think what Richard was trying to get at is pretty disrespectful the way the operators came in the first time around, and just blew blew off the regulators. That's something that cannot be allowed, and they they have to. Massachusetts regulators and regulators of other states, they have to make sure that that genie doesn't get out of the bottle, which is you have these newer companies, either new to the US or just new to the industry itself, and they're populated by a bunch of people who don't have any experience. And they come out and they treat the regulators just like they treat, I don't know, the Better Business Bureau or some other, you know, annoying government agency that they see as a speed bump.

Joe Brennan [00:31:48]:

Regulators have to assert that this is a highly highly scrutinized market that they have. It's a privilege, not a right to operate in these markets. And, you know, I guess the best way of saying it, like that old Seinfeld thing, who's got hand in this market? It's it's the regulators. Right? But I I think also at the same time, you know, Richard is is saying something that while it's he's right in the abstract, he's not right in the here and now, the practical, and saying, like, you guys should be taking this data, and you guys should be you guys should be Hold on there, Richard. Like, okay, how much more money do they have to get from their respective states in order to be able to tool up? Now, maybe it's just the threat of doing something like that because, Richard, he's an old gun. That guy's been around for a long, long time. Right? So maybe it's just the threat of potentially doing something like that. It's the hope that everybody falls in the line.

Joe Brennan [00:32:55]:

But, unfortunately, I think things have progressed too far with this market. And you already see, you know, a number of the operators when it comes to, like, how they're reporting their revenue and things like that. You're starting to see a lot of fines and infractions that are accruing here. It seems like every month, somebody's getting in trouble with the state of New Jersey for their non reporting. I don't know. Maybe next month, it's prime sports. But, yeah, you see these things. They happen, And it's it it seems willful.

Joe Brennan [00:33:26]:

And so, yeah. I mean, I I don't think mere threats or suggestions of of threats are are gonna be effective. But at the same time, it's asking the regulators to step up to a level that they have not been in. And there's there's third parties that are looking at our data. Like, you guys are probably familiar with the name, US Integrity, which is a third party company that we're supposed to be sharing our data on our markets with. And they're primarily looking at it from an integrity position like, you know, are they're supposed to be detecting the next Jeontae Porter

Shane Mercer [00:34:08]:

Right.

Joe Brennan [00:34:08]:

Issue. Right? Or or at least being the guys who go back and autopsy the data to determine whether one happened. Mhmm. So are are we now looking at there needs to be a 3rd party that is looking at data even more proactively than near real time or intensely or things? Instead of integrity issues regarding the contest, we'll say integrity issues regarding the players and the operators. And right now, nobody has that.

Andrew Pace [00:34:45]:

You know what's interesting, though, is, like, obviously, through the lens of inplayLIVE, we get to see all these sports bettors across North America, some of them in Europe as well, where in real time, you know, we'll potentially see the same sportsbooks settle a wager different differently based on the location. So a really good example was that was that 365 was in New Jersey and Colorado, and obviously in Ontario. And they voided the wagers in Ontario. They settled them as winners in, New Jersey and Colorado. Obviously, you talked about fines coming out. We that 365 was obviously just recently fined in New Jersey. But then going back to the whole data discussion, like, we know firsthand I love how you call it fan kings, by the way.

Andrew Pace [00:35:26]:

We know firsthand that and, again, this is gonna be like, you know, someone's playing a fiddle in the corner. Like, who cares or the tiny violin. But, like, as really full bettors, sometimes, you know, no one's gonna necessarily care or side with you to the extent of, like I don't know. We had a story of a guy who made 11 one dollar wagers on bet 365 and, the the definition of responsible betting, and and his account got clipped. So what We'll see. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was on our podcast.

Joe Brennan [00:35:55]:

What? They are one of Biggest goddamn companies in the world. Right.

Shane Mercer [00:35:57]:

Oh, he's, like, one of our first guests too. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:36:00]:

Yeah. It's it's Yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:36:02]:

Oh, that's pathetic. Sorry.

Andrew Pace [00:36:04]:

It is and that's not isolated, unfortunately. But the reason why I bring it up is because Fan King, sure. But Bet 365, I think they're one of 1 in the scumbag category. They're obviously operating Massachusetts as well. Didn't show up to the thing. But they're they're if you had their data, they're doing everything from, like I can't remember exactly what this is called, but it's a pattern of the way you move and interact with the app that's detected through their software, to to try to determine, who you are as a player outside of your username. Fair, I guess.

Andrew Pace [00:36:44]:

But location. Right? So, like, the the the sales pitch of sports betting, you know, you have these DraftKings bars or these Barstool Sports Bars. I know Barstool Sports isn't a sports book anymore. You know, you have these kiosks where everyone gathers together in the same place to bet, whether that's a sports book in Vegas or or or whatever it is. You know, you're jumping on the MGM Grand's Wi Fi, collectively, you know, as a group of people in that place. As an innocent sports bettor who's going to wager on games, that is, like, instinctual. You go into a place oh, what's the Wi Fi? Right? You go into a place where you're in the same location as someone else, and you're being geolocated, right down to the the very pin that you're sitting on, for where you're playing from. So they're using those types of tools separately of the wagers themselves.

Andrew Pace [00:37:41]:

But from an innocent player standpoint, then winning a few bets and then having that used against you is, like, complete and utter bullshit. And that's where I go, what would the data say about those things that would be eye opening to the regulator, especially from I think the Fan Kings thing. I know DraftKings is doing that specifically, but especially from Bet 365. They they're doing that all over the world and in a whole series of different ways where they are limiting players with these $1 wagers. So that's where I think the data would be, like, just damning to open up someone's account and see, like, you did what to this player that's betting $1 per whatever? Like, how could you possibly do that? So, yeah, I mean, the the the data side of it, while while you're saying is expensive, I'm like, jeez. Like, if they demanded that from a couple of these providers, it would be it would be shocking, some of the stuff that we might end up seeing.

Joe Brennan [00:38:40]:

Yeah. But here's the thing. It's it's sad in that none of what you just said is news to me. Okay? Because I that that's more or less it it's not even just the gaming industry. I mean, consumer web, the amount of money or the amount of data that people give up about, so every day when they pick up this thing. Right? And they do every I mean, Bill Gates doesn't need to give you a fake vaccine with a chip in it to track you. You're you're already doing it voluntarily. Right? So There you go.

Joe Brennan [00:39:16]:

There you go. You know, everybody just breezes past, like, the terms and conditions thing. I just checked that box. I just I gotta get on. You know? I got I gotta be able to use Venmo. I gotta be able to use Amazon. I gotta be able to Brian Sports, like, Band Kings, whatever. Everybody just blows past that.

Joe Brennan [00:39:32]:

They never read it. And people are this is the sad thing about everything that you just said is that everybody's agreed to it. We've all agreed to it to some extent or another to let these companies track us like that. Okay? Now nobody ever thinks about that, like, oh, did the level they're like, oh, well, we'll do tracking data. I'm just thinking like, oh, well, that they're gonna put cookies on there. So, like, you know, when I do a Google search on cookies, and then I go to, I don't know, inplaylive.com, I'm gonna get, like, banner ads that are gonna say, like, hey. Have you had a chocolate chip today? Like, that because people are always behind of what they think the capabilities are. But then when you're talking about everything from, like, the digital fingerprinting that on and, you know, device behavior analysis, everything that you just talked about.

Joe Brennan [00:40:22]:

And, I mean, I'm I like to say to people, I'm from I'm, like, Web 0.1. You know, I first started in 92 with Prodigi, and then, you know, I came through AOL and AOL Time Warner and all the stuff that we were doing then. That would be considered, like, most of the public knew about it today. They'd be like, wow, god. That's so advanced. Like, that was 20 years ago. Stuff that's being done now is just amazing. The way that you're able to get psychographic information about consumers based on their behavior on their apps.

Joe Brennan [00:40:56]:

Out of Prime Sports, no. We just know what you're betting on and whether you're a good bettor or not. That's it. But I I agree with you. It's it's if that if they suddenly had to expose that to regulators, they would be they'd they'd ship themselves. Let's just say it as it is. But, of course, they would make sure in any kind of data handover that the request would be so narrowly tailored that the regulators would never get along. So are it does that then beg the question, well, should regulators be going deeper on, well, what kind of data are you collecting players here? Right? Yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:41:40]:

I mean, regulators don't often go on fishing trips. They could. Regulators have broad discretion. A gaming regulator in the United States has more discretion than a US attorney or the attorney general. There's no necessarily due process or anything like that. So if they wanted to, they could, they just normally don't. They have to have a good reason to do this. And I don't think that this issue would necessarily affect.

Joe Brennan [00:42:15]:

Now I do think the responsible gaming one is an issue that could potentially trigger those kind of expeditions by regulators. So, well, what are you collecting people? Which might be potentially more dangerous to them, at least from a public perception, than this limiting of winners. Sorry, advantage players, or whatever it is that we're calling. Drink. Yeah. So

Andrew Pace [00:42:46]:

well, I guess we better talk about prime sports, Joe, because the reason why I, well, I I'm I think it's awesome that you attended that Massachusetts thing, but, obviously, this stems way beyond Massachusetts. So, like, where do you see Prime Sports fitting into all of this, not just relating to one state, but across the state and, like, into the future. Because, you know, obviously, as a player who's been clipped at, you know, at least 500 sportsbooks, it's always nice to hear someone that has a bit of a vision in the industry that is treating, an this terrible advantage player, with respect.

Joe Brennan [00:43:27]:

Drink. I get if I had to say, like, what our our strategy is, what what we see the Adam Bjorn probably says it best, is that for every dollar that is being wagered in regulated markets here in the US right now, at least 1, maybe 2, more that are continue to be wagered in the unregulated. That might be offshore.

Andrew Pace [00:43:58]:

Is that accurate?

Joe Brennan [00:44:00]:

Well, it's the offshore industry. I mean, they're not exactly reporting their numbers. Yeah. Sure. But we have we do have a good idea. You know, you do have a good sense of, like, what the companies in Coastal and elsewhere are doing. You know, if you even with looking at, like, the paperhead shops, even though they're not doing direct transact. You know, when you look at the size and scale of some of those companies here, That that mean they're not people aren't aren't using those just so they can take nickel wagers out there on the streets.

Joe Brennan [00:44:34]:

So so and and the other thing is think about how it's funny. I I hear this a lot, which is when guys start to you know, they come in. They they you know, the the great thing about FanKings is they created a lot of new bettors in in a sense. And that a lot of guys who weren't doing it before were giving it a try. And now they've gotten to a certain level, and a certain percentage of that cohort is now saying, like, well, I wanna give real betting a try. Well, real betting isn't necessarily Dan Kings in their mind. It is betting offshore. It's betting with a bookie.

Joe Brennan [00:45:15]:

It's you know, so, you know, it's betting using crypto, things like that. So it's funny how this is kind of this weird, you know, inversion for a lot of people in this industry who want to move. Because it's no secret when you look online. In the when you look at betting Twitter and and things like that, and you go on the forums and you and you see people talking. That's such a fucking old school thing, isn't it? Like, go on the forums. They're still out there. They're still out there. Yeah.

Joe Brennan [00:45:47]:

You when you go on, like, Discord. Right? You know, like, you're like

Andrew Pace [00:45:50]:

Yes.

Joe Brennan [00:45:52]:

Such an old guy tell, wasn't it? Jesus. Yeah. We're all still on SBR forum, Joe.

Andrew Pace [00:45:59]:

Yeah. Oh, SBR. Yeah. Good times.

Joe Brennan [00:46:02]:

But when people talk, you know, and it it's no secret that look. If if you wanna be a successful pro right now, given the state of the game here in the United States, you have to you know, it's more or less a a necessity to look beyond the regulated market, which is kinda ridiculous when you think. It is ridiculous. So so our goal isn't to come in and necessarily target guys who are going to fan kings or going to the casino. They're going to the sports adjacent, like fanatics or because those guys are all in one side of the pool. They're all after, like, the $20 recreational bettor who wants to bet Garland. That money and there's millions of those. You know, we're more in the the deeper end of the pool, from a terms of liquidity, but not necessarily with the number of players.

Joe Brennan [00:46:56]:

So we're we're talking about cohort that's probably mid 1,000. Okay? But they are players who have either either they've been chased away or they've never been welcomed into this marketplace, this US regulated marketplace. So they continue to play. Sure. And what we wanna be able to do is offer the regulated markets version. As simple as that. Instead of having to send your money, you know, via Dogecoin to some outfit down in the islands. Right? You can send it to us in New Jersey and Ohio, and then soon Kentucky and Arizona.

Joe Brennan [00:47:36]:

And you can play and get paid out in good old fashioned US greenbacks instead of, I don't know, whatever shit going some of these guys are doing out there right now. And that has an upside to it. There's people who want it. So that's really where we're going. We'd like to try and try and be one more out, for players who are continuing to do that and see if we can slowly move Well, it doesn't have to be slowly, if it could be rapid, Mrs. Brennan would be really happy about that. But see if we could start to eat into the amount of money that's going unregulated markets.

Andrew Pace [00:48:16]:

Right.

Joe Brennan [00:48:17]:

But there's only 2 companies, 3 companies arguably, that are kind of doing it. 2 traditional sportsbakers in prime and circa out on the West Coast. And then because they're in exchange, essentially, it's sport trade in New Jersey and now in a couple of other states. So that that 3 against how many? In how many states? So we're definitely having a slower start, but every every dollar let's put it this way. We don't pay to acquire players. Every dollar that's bet with us comes to us organically. And people know who and what we are. We our thing is that we gotta we gotta kinda grow beyond the guys who are just the sharps and, and the offshore players and try and get into more of the collective, more recreational market.

Joe Brennan [00:49:12]:

But we have to give them something that feels

Andrew Pace [00:49:17]:

Well, Joe, Joe, you did all you did also just say, like, you're giving them the legal out as opposed to the offshore out, but those offshore, they still are gonna clip your accounts. Right? Like, it isn't like those those accounts aren't getting, looked at. It's just sometimes the leash can be a little bit better. So you still are are you you can keep playing on your site. You're not limiting winning players. Right? So that that's something I know we've touched on, but, I mean, is amazing. And I think the broader picture there is going back to the regulation is that you represent to those regulators and to those other all sportsbooks. Like, hey, guys.

Andrew Pace [00:49:55]:

All those things you're saying you can't do, that's our model. So not only can you do it, it's how we operate.

Joe Brennan [00:50:02]:

Yeah. First of all, let me start off by saying, like, getting a Canadian to say the word out three times in one sentence was really, like, a highlight.

Andrew Pace [00:50:09]:

I went to I went to BetBash.

Joe Brennan [00:50:12]:

Out, out out.

Andrew Pace [00:50:13]:

They taught me how to do it there.

Joe Brennan [00:50:16]:

No doubt about it. It was that was that was definitely a highlight there. No. I mean, the the thing is the irony is the irony wasn't lost on me in that if I was if I was a Massachusetts regulator, during the during that, panel last week, the question I woulda asked me is, like, well, then why aren't you in Massachusetts? Right? Like, if your model is so obvious and, you know, has its virtues, well, why aren't you here? Right? And, you know, that that always begs the questions like, well, you guys make it really expensive, and upfront sunk cost to enter your market. So that's one of the reasons why we're not there. And at the at the same time, you know, the regulators, if they wanted to say, well, look. You know? Okay. Yeah. Our guy the guys who are currently here, they limit, but there's other companies out there that don't limit, then really, it's it's up to the marketplace to say, you know, if Massachusetts is a good enough market and has enough winners, then one of these companies, circa Prime, whomever, will find their way into our marketplace and problem solved.

Joe Brennan [00:51:31]:

Right? Because they don't think about it kind of the same way that we do. It it it doesn't need to be 4 or 5 open sportsbooks up there to counter the recreational sportsbooks. If there was 1, it'd be like, okay. Problem solved. So yeah. I I get it. I I even had a couple of people say to me, like, why don't they're, like, championing like, saying, like, you guys you should force those guys to not limit players that wouldn't that cut into the rationale for you? And the answer is, yeah. It is.

Joe Brennan [00:52:05]:

But, I mean, are we going to a, would it really? No. Not really. Because you look at the heyday when sports betting in the early 2000s through the aughts, you had plenty of sportsbooks. You had the Greek, Pinnacle, Heritage, Beckris, all those. They all got freaking enormous. And there weren't Right. There wasn't anything standing in their way. There was just there was plenty to go around.

Joe Brennan [00:52:34]:

It's this zero sum game approach or or that they have for this marketplace that I think is also a limiting factor. But, again, this is as you said at the outset, there's a lot of education that's involved here. And especially some of the newer states, they did this very quickly. I'm not saying that Massachusetts doesn't know what they're doing, but all of these states that went after New Jersey. New Jersey, we worked for 10 years to get to this point. So New Jersey was pretty well educated on the ins and outs, the funnel, and the economics on sports betting, which is probably why they're still the top jurisdiction when you look. They punch way above. So many of the others, though, it was like, okay.

Joe Brennan [00:53:25]:

Well, the state was passing legislation, to enable sports betting late in their spring session because that's when states passed their state budget. It was always being sold by people who are lobbying on the behalf of legal sports betting. Like, hey. There's a lot of tax dollars to be made. So it was getting done late, but then everybody was saying, we gotta get live by NFL season. So you sometimes you had, like, a few months. I think in Arizona, it was, like, 2 or 3 months when they did it to go from we're passing a law to we're licensing everybody and flipping the switch and having a a legal market. So there's not a whole lot of time to sit down and do the library work on the industry to know, hey.

Joe Brennan [00:54:05]:

This is what's best. So you probably need to have a kind of refresher course for everybody in the US regulated industry to say, like, look. This this is why this was a great opportunity in the 1st place. We didn't make our estimates about the the economics of the US sports betting market if it were legalized. We didn't do it based on guys who weren't even old enough to, like, I I don't know, ride a bike at the time, which is all the 20 something guys who are now doing SGPs. The numbers, the estimates were being done based on guys who were betting on the street, bet you know, betting offshore, all of this. And the irony is is like, okay. Now all those guys can't get onshore.

Joe Brennan [00:54:53]:

They're being turned away. So there really has to be kind of like a go back, refresh your course on education on this is how the industry functions. These are the real economics. This is why you can't charge 51% gross gaming tax rate and expect it to be a healthy market that's gonna continue to operate. A number of questions. But, nobody's really stepping forward right now because things are moving too fast, too furious, and all the companies have their their attention based elsewhere.

Shane Mercer [00:55:29]:

Because you are such a proponent of of the, you know, legalization effort, especially in in New Jersey, I'm I'm curious as to what your thoughts might be on some of the markets that haven't fallen yet, California, Texas. You know, do do we think or or at least do you think from your vantage point that that, you know, they're gonna give in eventually? Because we got a lot of people in our community in those states that are that are, you know, using the offshores. And I I'm sure they would love to see some of those regulated soft books come in so they could take advantage of them for a day or a week if they're lucky.

Joe Brennan [00:56:06]:

Well, what's the timeline what's the timeline available for eventually? Yeah. I'll I'll use for example. So I started with the lobbying effort in New Jersey around sports betting in November of 2008.

Andrew Pace [00:56:23]:

10 years prior.

Joe Brennan [00:56:25]:

The year before me in California, the lobbying efforts started to legalize online poker in Calv. Is there any online poker that's legal in California right now? So, the tribes in California, the gaming tribes, they're tough as nails. They don't look at the issue the same way that, you know, that we do in that like, obviously, we're real big advocates of sports betting and online sports betting in particular. Right? They look at that from a very different angle. That is just one more piece of the gaming pie and by their estimation, not a particularly big one. Imagine how much money that they have that right now they look at Bandkings, and they're like, like, Right? And when it came to mounting a a a a a campaign against FanKings and all like, what if FanKings spent, like, 200,000,000 in California to get it on the ballot? The tribe spent 300,000,000. They probably didn't have to spend anywhere near as much because how much money they pay to the state as part of the of the gaming compact and all the relationships that they've paid for handsomely over the years in Sacramento and everything, didn't have to spend anywhere near that much, but they spend it probably in part to show the Fan King's guys, this is our territory. This is our state, and we're gonna decide when this is gonna happen.

Joe Brennan [00:58:03]:

Okay? So it's not gonna happen until the tribes want it to happen. And the the general, Victor. I I'm forgetting Victor's. I'm blanking on his last name. He's the gentleman who is the head of the National Indian Gaming Association. Couple of weeks ago, he put he put up on Twitter, it was like, sports betting and then buffet. I was like, jeez. Victor, there was a nicer way to say that.

Joe Brennan [00:58:36]:

Right? But that's I mean, it's like right now, our buffets, all our our all you can eat buffets in our casinos would make us more money than sports betting does. So and and it's that economic piece, a real sense of what the economics are, is one of the reasons why it's not going anywhere in Texas. The Texas lieutenant governor said a couple of years ago, the amount of money that we would be projected to get from taxing legal sports betting in the state of Texas wouldn't last as half of one day of our state budget. So why would we do it? And I when you when you stand up against that and there's a lot of cultural resistance, because the evangelical community, there in Texas and the fact that everybody in Texas goes over the border of Oklahoma to the tribal casinos there to get their gamble on. Right? You know, there's a lot of things that are working against any kind of near term solution in those states, which must be why everybody's going into sweepstakes. Right?

Joe Brennan [00:59:43]:

They come up with a solution that's I don't know. I won't go with we won't go too far into sweepstakes here right now, but, you know, it's not exactly an easy road forward there as well.

Shane Mercer [00:59:57]:

Wow. Fascinating to sort of hear hear that, kind of analysis of of the current, you know, landscape in those in those states. Joe, is there any, other message you wanna share with our audience about what Prime's doing, about where you guys are going? You know, a lot of our audiences in Canada, I don't know if if our market is of interest or if you're just focusing on the US market at this point. But but any sort of, final message you wanna share with our audience?

Joe Brennan [01:00:25]:

First of all, I got nothing against Canadians based on some of the prior statements I Yeah. You know, this the the the CEO works for me. The CEO works for me. He's a proud Vancouverite. You know? So but somehow also a Dallas Cowboys fan, so go figure. You know, no. I Canada obviously is interesting. That's a market I certainly thought their approach was very interesting with, when they first legalized in Ontario where, you know, gray market operators like Pinnacle and 365 could apply for licensures, you know, in addition to all of the, you know, pure regulated market types like, like FanKings could come in as well.

Joe Brennan [01:01:09]:

Yeah. So, definitely a a unique approach. But I would say kind of a common sense approach if what your goal is, as a as a state or a territory in maximizing immediate growth of a regulated marketplace, you know, consumer protection and maximizing tax revenue. It's a pretty sensible way of doing things. I don't think it would necessarily fly in the US, but, there's too much working against it, too much, legal history working against it. But it was interesting to see. We take a walk, don't run to our death type approach here right now, and I think it's benefited us. You know? That makes sense.

Joe Brennan [01:01:51]:

I frequently I frequently joke about my sportsbook.com, Deadpool, and, like, okay. Well, what's the next company we're gonna scratch off here? There's been a lot of folks who've you know, the Unibets, the Betfreds, and people like that that have have, stepped up, to take the bullet to get scratched off my list. Who knows? Maybe Prime would be a good one to bet on right now. Because, I mean, we're certainly not picking the easy way to go here in the markets. We are, though, expanding. Yeah. We're we're waiting, for Kentucky regulators to approve our license so that we can open up there. There are rumors, and I know you guys heard them when we were at Bed Bash about something going on down there in Arizona, and we hope to have more definitive announcement about that here very soon.

Joe Brennan [01:02:43]:

What we're looking at really is not trying to play whack a mole with every state that may be allowing legal sports betting. We're we're much more interested in states that could be kind of hubs. Great example, New Jersey is a great betting market, but New Jersey is like a barbell because it's got New York the Greater New York City at one end, and it's got the Greater Philadelphia at the other end. And just that area alone, we know that probably accounts for total addressable market in the United States, at least 1 third of the betting liquidity in the US. That's why it's really important for us to be. Why Ohio? Well, Ohio is actually a really great betting state, has a lot has deep history in sports betting. We're currently getting killed by a couple of guys from Ohio, so there is actually some real sharp bettors out there right now. But it's also you know, you it's surrounded by you got Western Pennsylvania, so guys will come over the border from the Pittsburgh area.

Joe Brennan [01:03:42]:

You know, you do have Kentucky. We have, Indiana, touches Michigan as well. So it's another really upstate when you look at the southwest. That's one reason why we've been interested in Arizona because Arizona gets you 45 minutes, a 45 minute drive from the Las Vegas Strip to the Arizona border, to be able to bet, you know, with us. Or you got Southern California. You know, so it it's it's a great neighborhood to be in, to operate that kind of, like, hub and spoke approach towards sports betting. And then after that, you know, it would be very interesting. We're looking at markets down here in the in the US South.

Joe Brennan [01:04:24]:

I'm in Virginia, which I think would be an excellent, addition, especially when you consider you got North Carolina and Maryland on there. It'll be interesting to see if Georgia is finally able to get their legislation across the line.

Shane Mercer [01:04:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think they're really working on things there.

Joe Brennan [01:04:41]:

Yeah. They're they're definitely putting the effort in, putting the work in. South Carolina is never gonna hook hook up the 2 there, so it'll just have to remain a state with excellent barbecue and no legal sports betting. But again, like, at because we've we came late and are advancing slowly, one of the things that's really important to a smaller independent company like us is looking at what the market entry costs are. Everything from market access, the deals that you cut with the local operators, the prices on that have been coming down and down and down, you know, from where they were at their height, we'll say, like, 2018 through 2020. So, especially with all these people that are exiting the marketplace and heading back to their side of the Atlantic, you know, with nothing but negative stories to tell about us, nasty Americans.

Andrew Pace [01:05:31]:

Well, you know what's interesting though is the whole, like, let's go after these parlay guys and, like, the $20 bettor that you referenced and things like that. It's really hard to get this message across. But for the most part, all that gimmicky bullshit that people are betting over there, if you are doing main market stuff, even with their boosts and promotions and all that crap, your line is still gonna be better on the parlay than the one that they're taking. Like, you go over and you put a $100 on the parlay there. You get some weird promotion or something, and then net of it, you go place it over at prime. And the line, you do the you just it's really easy math. You're like, well, I should probably bet it over here. Right? So that's like that's a really hard thing to get out to the market because, you know, they like the bells and whistles and and whatever, you know, maybe Jamie Fox smiling on the home page or something like that.

Andrew Pace [01:06:22]:

But, you know, it I guess my message to any of our listeners that are recreational players is like, hey. If you're in those states, like, give it a shot because, you are gonna be losing less, by being paid more on the lines that you're getting there compared

Andrew Pace [01:06:38]:

to the Fan Kings lines.

Joe Brennan [01:06:39]:

Yeah. I'm I you guys probably hear the same talk we do. You know, You have a lot of people who claim American sports bettors are not price sensitive, yada yada yada. And that they have a tendency to just load up on one brand and and stay with that brand. And what I would say is they're not price sensitive, generally speaking, yet. But can you name a single area of commerce where people don't eventually try and gravitate to a lower cost model to a best price. That's the reason why things like Walmart and Amazon, Costco, Southwest Airlines, and things like that. That's why they exist.

Joe Brennan [01:07:22]:

Because the people are eventually gonna want more for the dollar that they spend on something, particularly when betting is more or less a commodity. Right? We're all buying a can of Coke. Do you really give a shit what the machine it comes out of looks like? Right? Like, I make this analogy sometimes. Like, I want to get a can of Coke. I can go up, and you'd have, like, one of those old fashioned ones that we used to have back in, like, the seventies and eighties, where there's just, like, it looked like a refrigerator, and you press this big button after you put your 2 quarters in there. And you could hear something falling in there. Like, dung dung dung dung. And eventually, can of Coke pops out at the hopper down at your feet.

Joe Brennan [01:08:03]:

And you're like, alright. I got a can of Coke.

Joe Brennan [01:08:07]:

Or and you go to those really nice ones that, like, my daughter has at her university, where it's like a show. And you see all the cans arrayed inside. And then there's this robotic arm that goes up, and it reaches, and it grabs the Coke. And then it brings it down in a nice, slow, gentle arc of the hopper where it dumps it, and then this plastic door opens up. But in the end, what do I have? I still have the same can of Coke, right? So if you want to are you willing to pay 20% more to see the slow arcing arm pick up your can of Coke? Or do you just want a can of Coke at the best price you possibly get? And I don't expect that this is something that happens over. But eventually, the market, like consumers, they do become smart. They do become more discriminated. And when more and more people realize it, like, well, I'm paying 20% more over here for the same thing, Especially when the barrier to entry, like this whole thing, like, oh, well, people load up on one brand, and they don't tend to migrate around.

Joe Brennan [01:09:09]:

Like, yeah, because it's just so difficult to go from 1 sports betting brand to the other. Let's see. I've got how many on the face of my phone here, like, with this thumb? I'll open this one, and then I'll slide it over, what, 1 centimeter to the right, and I'll open that one Yeah. And take a look. And that's all we're trying to say is, like, look. Okay. If do this. If you've got fan kings on your phone, beautiful.

Joe Brennan [01:09:34]:

Use them. They're great, slick, and very well put together apps. Okay? But before you bet that game or before you bet that, maybe slide the thumb over 1 centimeter to the Prime app, okay, which is just as easy and free to have on your phone, and see what's the comparative price. Do you pay less in order to bet that? Well, yeah. And if you pay less, what does that mean? Well, you keep more money in your pocket and you can make more bets, right? But we'll see. I don't expect us to be a comet through the sky when it comes to success, but Adam and I are committed to doing this over the long term. We're looking at a 5 year window to see with the markets that we have right now, how we're able to eventually measure up in there and grow the business. So, in that regard, not being a publicly traded company, I don't have the quarterly pressure to get out there on CNBC and tell everybody that up is down and everything's going great.

Joe Brennan [01:10:39]:

So, we'll just gonna do it the old fashioned way.

Shane Mercer [01:10:42]:

No. I'll, I just wanna end on on that note there, that, Joe, I think you're absolutely right to think that the market and the general public will eventually be interested in finding the best price. And, that is a big reason why we do this podcast because we believe that as recreational sports bettors listen to us and tune in, that they will make more informed choices over the course of their sports betting life and career, and will, you know, become better sports bettors and more intelligent sports bettors. And I think you're absolutely right that as the, market grows and as this, you know, as as the things really sort of take off across the states, people will make more, informed, decisions and and app price shopping is absolutely one of them. So, with that, Joe, I just wanna say thank you very much for coming on the show. Really appreciate having you on. It's been awesome hearing, you know, you kind of, talk about the landscape and, again, amazing, performance at the MGC last week. We thank you for representing, Sports Bettors, the way you did there.

Shane Mercer [01:11:52]:

So so really appreciate that. But, to you, to pace, to everybody out there, tuning in from around the world, till next week, guys. Keep beating those books. Keep beating Joe's book if you can.

Joe Brennan [01:12:05]:

Oh, come on, man. Dump a little bit to us. You know, I got kids I gotta send to college Jeez.

Shane Mercer [01:12:12]:

Take care, guys. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code BEHINDTHELINES.