Episode 1

📜 Full Transcript

Shane Mercer [00:00:10]:

Welcome to Behind The Lines, a podcast brought to you by inplayLIVE. This is a sports betting podcast like no other. We are not here to give you our best picks, our favorite parlays or are over under predictions for this weekend. We are not here to peer into a crystal ball and predict the future. What we are here to do is to educate and inform sports bettors about the practices. The sports books try to deploy their strategies the way they try to turn customers into long term losers. By exposing their tactics and offering tips and counter tactics. We aim to help sports bettors navigate this battlefield and avoid the traps and pitfalls created by the sports books. I'm your host, Shane Mercer. I'm a career journalist with a background in hard news, but I have a big time passion for sports and I consider myself a sports betting hobbyist. I'm excited now to introduce though, Andrew Pace, the founder of inplayLIVE. He is a professional sports bettor and inplayLIVE is probably one of the most sophisticated sports betting communities in the world. Andrew, how are you, man?

Andrew Pace [00:01:32]:

Never been better, boss. I got to say that intro was incredible. And I don't know if I'm capable of getting through such a string of words without the oohs oz and, UMS, with the professional background that you have and how cleanly you do it. But yeah, super excited to be here, Shane, and really excited for the future of the show.

Shane Mercer [00:01:52]:

Yeah, no, we're really excited and I'm really hoping that over time our audience will be able to become better bettors by recognizing when the books are trying to fool them. And I mean the books never stop. They're always trying to fool us. You, the viewer, the audience. It's never ending. And they're always looking for ways to take your money. And if you're listening to us and you're watching this, then chances are you are already a sports bettor and you know how much money they've taken from you. So we are here to try to help you lose less and hopefully win more. And again, not by peering into a crystal ball or trying to predict the future, but simply by recognizing when they are trying to dupe you. So with that, I think we should dive into our very first topic here on episode one. And I would describe this as the elephant in every single room. And it really is. Wherever you go these days, we are bombarded by advertising by the sports books. This has to do with the opening up of markets and loosening of restrictions and regulations right across North America, both in Canada and the US. And so with that, we are now seeing sports advertising in a way I don't think we've ever seen before. It's literally everywhere you go. You can't avoid it. It's on the broadcast, whatever game you're watching, even if you're not watching a game, you're getting bombarded with sports ads. You could be watching your favorite drama or something, and you're getting hit with sports ads. I was on the TTC in Toronto the other day. I couldn't go anywhere without being surrounded by points bet. Points bet here, points bet there, everywhere you go, and it's a constant bombardment of ads. So with that, Andrew, tell me a little bit about what you're seeing.

Andrew Pace [00:03:51]:

Well, speaking of pointsbet, they're trying to work with us right now.

Andrew Pace [00:03:56]:

We have some pretty cool stories that hopefully we'll be able to get into over the course of the episodes relating to how it all works behind the scenes, that a lot of, I guess, people at the individual betting level don't necessarily understand. And I'm a big believer that information is power. So if you start to really understand how the actual businesses work behind the scenes, or behind the line, shall we say, that really presents opportunity from an understanding as a better an understanding of what's going on, which in my opinion, leads to more informed and smart decisions. But I mean, as far as what I'm seeing, I think it's what everyone's seeing. And ultimately that is, like you said, bombardment of ads. But I think more than anything, what's happening out there right now is it's kind of this gold rush. In 2018, sports betting was legalized in New Jersey, and then obviously, we're sitting here in 2023, where 35 of the 52 states have now been legalized. That doesn't mean you can't actually place live wagers in all of those states, but you can actually, in some capacity, whether that's actually going to some sort of local government facility and placing a physical wager pregame where you get the old school classic Las Vegas betting slip. 35 states. It's now legalized where in some capacity, you can actually place a wager. And then, of course, in Canada, on April 4, Ontario became legalized and single game wagering became legalized across Canada as well. In Ontario being the first province to kind of push through and have it legalized at the provincial level. We've seen those books that came to New Jersey in 2018 and across the United States here in Canada as of 2022 and beyond. And what's crazy about it is that it doesn't matter where you live. Give you a good example, california. You look at the side of Chase Stadium. California is not legalized. What's on the side of Chase Stadium when the warriors play every single game bet way boom. Raiding your face in a non legalized province. I'm here in British Columbia, canada. All I see is sports betting ads. Igaming from Ontario, and apparently the mindset with a lot of these sports books are number one. There's people watching them that are in legalized states or in legalized provinces that they're then advertising to, but then on top of that, they're trying to get your brain in the sort of right head space for betting. Once the legalization does come to your geographical region and inundated would be the correct term, like you said. And I think one of the biggest reasons for that as a whole as to why it's happening to the degree that it is, obviously it's money. Everyone knows that they're lining the pockets of the companies and the advertising dollars that are going into it are huge, but there really isn't restriction, so they really aren't getting any pushback. And that's because once this whole thing sort of took off and got legalized, everyone's kind of trying to get their hand in the cookie jar, whether it's the government and the legislation that's actually being put together, they want to do it in the most advantageous way so that they receive the greatest amount of tax dollars. The sports books themselves want to be as profitable as they possibly can. In order to be profitable as a sports book, that means us, the bettors have to lose money over time and line their pockets. And then of course, everything associated with everyone that wants to be a part of that, right? Like the celebrities, endorsements, all that kind of stuff. So that's what I'm seeing. It's absolutely wild out there and I actually have a vision. Shane. So this is kind of a great vision for our show, but it's also sort of a vision for the industry as a whole. And we're talking about being inundated with ads and the money behind it. But I look at the whole thing and I go, okay, how can we reasonably and responsibly coexist in a world full of bettors where we can make people more informed, more educated, but also from the legislature and regulation side of things? Allow for player protection so that we are fairly treated? And also, like I said, winners have the ability to coexist in this space full of whatever the future holds in this crazy industry.

Shane Mercer [00:08:18]:

I think you said it there or you nailed the word word of the day there. Fair, right? That's what it's all about, fair play. And I mean, we're all big sports fans, that's why we like this and we have so much fun with it. And imagine a sports event where it's not fair, where the playing field isn't fair, right? I mean, what fun would that be? It wouldn't be enjoyable at all to watch. And I think the need for fair play across the board, whether that's in the province of Ontario or the state of New Jersey or anywhere in the US. Canada and around the world, fair play should be the name of the game. And so we're seeing all these advertisements though, and a lot of them are not exactly being honest about the offers that they are providing. It's been like that for a long way, for a long time in advertising where sure, the advertisement says one thing, but then you read the fine print and it's actually something slightly different. I think the sports books are taking that to a whole new level, though, where you really think that, hey, oh, they're going to give me all my money back if I place this one bet. And then you find out, oh, wait, no, it doesn't quite work that way. And oh, you can't get all your money back at that time and oh, you have to keep playing and keep betting more money in order to get some of that money you lost back. And they have all of these sort of tactics in their advertisements to kind of fool you. And for me, one of the most notable ones is the free bet where it's, oh, here's $1,000, free bet and you place $1,000, you'll get your $1,000 back. But no, it doesn't quite work that way. A lot of times you have to make another $1,000 bet that they're offering you for free. So you have one shot to get your $1,000 back. That's one that I've seen and sort of encountered myself. But Pace, I'm sure you've seen many more.

Andrew Pace [00:10:27]:

Yeah, it's interesting because being a professional sports bettor at inplayLIVE, we like to call them sports value analysts. I've kind of lived through the gray area that was Canada before true legalization. And the reason for that is because the legislature in Canada that was written before 2022 was written in 1960 when the internet didn't exist. And basically a lot of these sports books from the UK have been able to have free rein in Canada before legalization. So for someone like myself, I got to use a lot of these sports books long before they were technically fully legalized. And the Canadian government seemed to be okay with it as well because there was never any sort of cracking down or regulation of the books. Right. And I think that one of the big selling features and this isn't just Canada one of the big selling features of the regulated market was you don't have to use these shady, sketchy offshore sports books. You don't have to use a bookie anymore, you don't have to worry about getting paid. These are trusted, regulated businesses that operate under these very sort of intense regulations that they must follow. And to a certain extent, the things that I just said are true. And that's one thing that big lobbyists and promoters have really fallen back on. They go every single time you read an article where they try to get both sides, that message keeps coming back. This is the safe way to play. You don't have to use bookies, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. Well, the thing is, now that we're in a regulated market, and especially being in the position that I am, where we see people internationally betting across all different states, regions, provinces, offshore onshore everything, all these different sports books, a lot of the offshores treat people a lot more, quote, fairly than the actual regulated books do. And a lot of these regulated books, it goes back to the topic of advertising where I kind of said they have free rein with their advertising. Well, when the regulators are now saying back to the players that have issues, it's actually the sports books decision on how they handle their private business and how they handle you is up to them. Well, then you're empowering them to continue to basically play a game that isn't fair, where the referee is kind of definitely cheering for one side. So, yeah, I've seen it in spades before the regulation, but I think the important note and distinction there is that we've now seen it in spades across multiple geographic regions after regulation. And that's where I want to make the biggest impact I possibly can. And I think the people of inplayLIVE want to make this the biggest impact that they possibly can in uniting players to actually seek out fair protection. So I would actually ask the question back to you, Shane, since you're in Ontario, you're in a regulated market, are you getting the verbiage free bet or risk free in Ontario?

Shane Mercer [00:13:37]:

Yeah, the free bet is still out there. You see that and you see risk free. And at the end of the day, you're betting on sports. There's always risk, right? Nothing is risk free. And while the sports books may want you to think that you're going to get a free bet out of it, and you may get a free bet out of it, but that bet isn't what you think. It's going to be the practice of rolling over as well, right? Where you think you're going to be able to do something with some money you want and then, oh, you can't cash it out or you can't get it there's that as well. We're still seeing a lot of that over here in Ontario with free bet or risk free. And it is very common. You're seeing it on the billboards, you're seeing it on TV.

Andrew Pace [00:14:29]:

So Shane, I got to cut you off there because it is 100% illegal for sports book providers to use the term free bet or risk free in Ontario if they are one of the regulated Igaming sports books. So anyone that's watching this right now that has a specific example of any verbiage associated with what we just said in Ontario or in Ohio, those are the two places that it's not allowed to be done. We will link below in this podcast where you can actually click on the link and file a complaint in Ohio or with Ontario that actually shows the direct story that you have relating to risk free or free bet so that you can actually file that complaint properly. And that goes for all sort of malpractice or anything that you feel as a player you weren't adequately protected for, you can file complaints in any of the regulated regions by clicking that link that we'll link below. So I just think that that's really important now with the risk free bets. What is really interesting is that in theory, what you think that would be is, okay, I have $1,000 risk free bet. That means that I deposit $1,000. I mean, I assume that already, but some people might not, they might not think that that's necessary, but I deposit $1,000, that gives me my $1,000 ability to take a wager. And then if I lose, I get $1,000 back and I can just cash out. Nah, that ain't how it works.

Shane Mercer [00:15:49]:

I've been burned that way before. I saw one that was $500 and I thought, oh, okay, great, I'll make my $500 wager. If it loses, I'll get my $500 back. Well, no, what I got was a one time $500 free bet, which meant that, oh, okay, I lost my wager the first time and now instead of getting my $500 back, no, I've got one bet that I can place one time for $500 and cross my fingers and hope it hits. Well, long story short, it didn't hit goodbye my $500.

Andrew Pace [00:16:22]:

Right. But if you did win that bet, you get back. You don't get the principal back, you don't get the 500 plus the winnings. You only get the winnings back. So if you were to have wagered that at -200 odds in American odds or 1.5 in decimal odds, you would have gotten $250 back because that's what the winnings were on that bet. Not 750, the initial plus the winnings.

Shane Mercer [00:16:46]:

Exactly. Right. So these are all sort of ways that they're trying to get you and Pace, you more than I have sort of learned some of these things the hard way.

Shane Mercer [00:16:57]:

But I know that I've learned it the hard way. I know you have. And I know other members of inplayLIVE have definitely learned it the hard way.

Andrew Pace [00:17:04]:

I try to preach learning the easy way, but yes, we definitely have learned the hard way on a few things.

Shane Mercer [00:17:11]:

So one of the biggest sports books out there, I think we're going to be remiss to not talk about them and we've got to bring it up is bet three six five. They've really got a handle on the market. They are everywhere in terms of advertising. And I know Pace, you've got one in particular that really stands out to you.

Andrew Pace [00:17:29]:

Yeah, one of their ads. It's actually not even the ad. It's the first 5 seconds of the ad. I'll just run the ad right now if that's cool.

Shane Mercer [00:17:38]:

Shane? Yeah, let's do it.

Andrew Pace [00:17:40]:

Commercial: Aaron Paul -> "In my hand is everything I will ever need to bet in play. I can bet on over 780,000 different games every year just like that. Want to make a bet while the game is still being played? Download the app and see for yourself. Why bet365 is the world's favorite sports book."

Shane Mercer [00:18:08]:

What is it about that that really sort of gets you going.

Andrew Pace [00:18:18]:

Well, yeah. In my hand is everything I will ever need to bet on live sports. Well, if anyone has any success or experience betting on live sports with bet three six five, I think your shelf life with them has been shorter than you would have liked. That's false advertising, in my opinion, because I know of close to thousands, if not tens of thousands of cases where people betting on live sports on bet three six five have been politely removed and restricted and no longer able to place wagers with them.

Shane Mercer [00:19:02]:

And here they are trying to promote and amplify this idea of betting during the game and betting live, and then as soon as you do it, and you do it with any kind of success, they say, no more. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:19:25]:

The Aaron Paul thing with them, it's kind of a series of ads. I think they're great. They're great ads.

Andrew Pace [00:19:31]:

I get a little excited. I'm like, yeah, let's go. And that's how they're obviously designed, right. They really want you to get excited about the games. But I think that, too, there is sort of this historic way of betting on sports. And people used to say, if you're a professional sports bettor, you live in Vegas. Vegas won the worst place to live as a professional sports bettor now. But the reason for that was because they took pregame wagers at the kiosk, and you could go up and down the strip, placing them as many times as you want at all these different casinos. And that ad is sort of sending the message of you can actually do this when the game's on. And the series of ads then goes on, obviously, to tell you the different things that you can wager on. And Shane, I think you and I know firsthand, the different things that they promote you betting on that are exciting, like player props or next touchdown score. Those are the very things that they will also flag you for with any degree of consistent success. So much so that there's certain live markets that they have that are a trap for the player that's about to wager on them. So there's certain loopholes that they have in their algorithm that are actually profitable over the long term. And when you expose those loopholes, rather than them fixing their algorithm and going, okay, we can fix this market so that we are not exposed to the loss that we're experiencing from sharp players on this one specific market. Rather than do that and sharpen their book, they go, we see you and we just set a trap for you. You just bet on this one live market and you're done. They can shut you down as quick as one single wager, which has happened to me.

Shane Mercer [00:21:22]:

Yeah, it's unbelievable to think that off of one bet that they've promoted and put out there and told you to bet on, and then you do it. And it's like, no, sorry, you won your bet and we don't want your business anymore. Yeah, it's crazy. But let's sort of move the conversation along a little bit here because, you know, at that stage, though, you've signed up, right? You, you've, you've created an account with the sports book. In some way, their advertising has been effective, right? You've now gone ahead and you've said, okay. Yeah, you know what? I am going to sign up with this sports book and I'm going to go through the whole rigmarole that's involved with that, which is giving them a whole bunch of identification. Perhaps your deposit methods or bank account information, fingerprints, urine sample.

Shane Mercer [00:22:16]:

Depending on the book, the list can go on and on. But you know what? Their advertising has been so effective, they've pulled you in. You've now done all of that out of your own volition. And then they start getting you in another way and they start advertising to you via email and via text message, where now it's not a situation where, oh, you're watching the game or all you've put on the TV. And you expect advertisement but maybe you're going through your inbox to see maybe going through some work stuff or whatever, and you've got a whole bunch of promotions and giveaways and bonuses available to you, and they're really kind of getting at you right where you are, big time.

Andrew Pace [00:23:09]:

And I think to that same point, like you're waiting for an important text and in comes the text from the book. That's the flip side of this, right? So we kind of just looked at that from, hey, you guys are falsely advertising. You limited the less than 5% of players that won a little bit of money or found a loophole on your website. How dare you, right? And I think there's validity to that argument. Well, the other side of this is you go, okay, we go back to the profitability and everyone wanting their hand in the cookie jar and inundated with ads and the government profiting now off of losing sports bettors in their respective regions. So now you look at it and you go, okay, they are making money. Bet three six five is the most profitable sports book on the planet and it's no secret that their CEO is the highest paid CEO on the planet in the world, right? So then you look at it from the stance that you just brought up. You have lost a little too much money. You do want a break. You don't want to lose your account because you have had fun doing this at times. You don't view yourself as a problem gambler. You don't. But maybe you need a little bit of a break or maybe you just need a week off or you don't want to deposit today and then you get a free $50 bet or a free $500 bet, right? And it comes through on your text message and in your email and all these different things, and you're like, oh, well, how do I not spend this free $500? Imagine right now, Shane, it was Christmas and I give you a $500 gift card to your favorite restaurant. You wouldn't go like, oh, toss it in the trash. You go, no, I mean, this is $500, I got to go play with this. Right? And then obviously, that's the system that they get the losing players to continue to play regardless of whether they really want to or not. And that's the other side of the I know you're talking about the emails and the text messages, but these ads that come on definitely do paint a picture of this new, regulated and easy system of how simple it is to bet. From being at a wedding to playing tennis to you can just pull your phone out and bet anytime you want. To their credit, it is that easy. Once you're set up and verified, it is that easy, right? And that's the dangerous side of it all, obviously, is that person that maybe needed a bit of a break got looped back in, and then perhaps it does become problematic. And when they're advertising and where they're advertising, not having specific regulations or any pushback leading to people seeing this stuff, when they're really trying to get away from it. Right.

Shane Mercer [00:25:53]:

And that idea, right, of taking a break, hey, you know what, I don't want to bet on sports this week. I've already lost some money, I'm not interested in losing more, so I'm going to take a break this week. That is the fundamental idea behind responsible gambling, which is the other message that you always sort of see tacked on at the very end of their advertisements, right. You sort of see it in a little bit of text, maybe at the bottom of the screen, or just a very quick always remember to gamble responsibly, something like that, right?

Andrew Pace [00:26:25]:

Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:26:26]:

The person who wants to take that break is doing exactly that. They're saying, you know what, I've had enough. I've lost a fair amount of money here, I don't want to lose anymore. I'm going to take a break. And then boom. Message, text message, email, hey, gamble more, bet more. It almost is very sort of counter to that idea of responsible gambling that these sports books all claim to want to promote, right.

Andrew Pace [00:26:55]:

So if right now we had the CEO of DraftKings or FanDuel on with us, they would say, well, we have these responsible gaming tools and this is why we have them. And to, to your point, Shane, they would say, oh, you can take a break. We have a take a break option. You're not going to get the emails, all that kind of stuff. You can take it for a week, you can take it for a month, you can take it for a year. These tools exist. There's more to it. Than that and they know that to a certain extent. But at the same time, there's a whole psychology behind all of that that you really don't want to press the button. So sports betting in general is very male dominant. The males drive the sports betting market. Of course there are female sports bettors out there, but there's this nature of it. You go over to your buddy's place for Sunday football and there's a bunch of buddies there and everyone's betting in the room. You clicking that break or that pause button is like saying, I give up, I'm a loser, I'm not one of the guys. There's more to it than actually clicking it. And then there's the other part of it where you might be thinking it in your head. You go to sleep, you wake up in the morning, you haven't pressed it yet, and then you're like, hey, today's a new day and there's my free bet or my offer, right? So yes, those tools do exist and yes, you can use them. That's why they have those on the site. Like, do you have a problem gaming gambling, call this hotline, use these tools and they are there and they do get used. Like, to say that they don't get used is crazy. People do use them. I just think that in general they do really want those people that do click those buttons to keep obviously playing.

Shane Mercer [00:28:32]:

Yeah, FanDuel, I think has one of the better advertisements, or I should say one of the more effective advertisements when it comes to responsible gambling where the guy is bugging his buddy about, hey, what's your secret to betting? And hey, how do you do it? Is it home dogs? Is it the mascot? And the guy's like, no, I just use the responsible gaming features to be a successful bettor. I mean, you know a lot of sports bettors, I know a lot of sports bettors. I don't know a lot of sports bettors that are saying that that's their strategy, right?

Andrew Pace [00:29:06]:

No one right. And I think honestly, that's a great episode for us to do in the future that I'm sure we'll cover. But we will definitely go into true responsible gaming tools. And when you go back to this whole thing and what the vision is and why we're doing this, all it is to educate you. And when we say that, we do really mean it. So if you do tune into this show, over time, I think you're going to get some really great opportunities to get some great tools.

Andrew Pace [00:29:31]:

And when I refer to responsible gaming tools, I mean actual tools that will improve your betting that we use at inplayLIVE that we'll be giving away for free. And then obviously the education associated with those tools, how we use them and how you can use them in your day to day betting. So that like Shane said earlier, at a minimum you can lose less. Or at least lose responsibly.

Shane Mercer [00:29:51]:

Yeah, another sort of tactic here that the sports books are using. And I mean, this is Advertising 101, but I think perhaps they are taking it to the next level. Here is the celebrity endorsements and the integration into the sports broadcast. So first of all, everybody's seen these ads. We've all seen them. But we've got Wayne Gretzky. We've got Rob Gronkowski, austin Matthews, george St. Pierre. So we've got the athletes that are all being paid by the sports books and they're all endorsing different sports books. And it's almost like a competition to see who can get the biggest named athlete to endorse their sports book. But then on top of it, too, you've also got really popular actors and actresses. I'm thinking. Jamie Fox, we just saw you run the bet. Three, six, five. Ad with Aaron Paul of Breaking Bad fame. So we've got these big time celebrity endorsements. What are your thoughts on them specifically? And I guess I'm thinking more about the athletes themselves, people who are currently playing the game, or in Gretzky's case, played in the past. But a few of these guys are currently playing the game. What do you think about seeing them promoting sports betting on such a regular basis?

Andrew Pace [00:31:18]:

Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. I do know for a fact, just with what I've seen on social media, a lot of people are really disappointed. There's a lot of people that are really disappointed. People feel like their favorite athletes as kids have sold out. Like I know people selling gretzky memorabilia. But then the flip side is just back to the point that we've been making the whole time is everyone kind of wants their piece of the pie, right? And that's obviously these guys are getting paid big money by these sports books to entice and get the greatest market share that they possibly can as early as possible. There's also this sort of notion amongst the sports books that they think it's like the Uber model where you try to outbid everyone and take a loss to build up all your customers in one place. I don't think that exists in the sports betting world, but there definitely is a bit of that race to market that's occurring, which to a certain extent is valid. But I don't think at the end there's just going to be this one book where it's like all hail DraftKings, the only sports book in the world because they undercut won over the whole market and had the best celebrity endorsers. But yeah, I mean, it all just comes back to the money. The kids are a big part of that, right? Like there's a lot of young kids that are big Connor McDavid fans and now they see, I mean, remember us buying Nike as kids, right, watching Michael Jordan, right? They see these guys and obviously then that turns them on to like, hey, what is bet MGM? This ad is being played next to Barney in the morning.

Andrew Pace [00:32:53]:

So those questions are being asked at a young age and then yeah, the fact that they're actually playing in the league still like McDavid Matthews and a few others, that's interesting. Before you asked that, I actually hadn't even thought of that. And because of the fact that we have some exposure to a lot of different people at inplayLIVE, that now leads me to think about Calvin Ridley and how he was betting. He made a couple of parlays and then got suspended. I don't think any active NFL players are advertising, so I don't think they can. That's an assumption I'm making. I'm not 100% sure. But obviously with the NHL it's different. We do have NHL players at inplayLIVE. I've been specifically told on calls with them that they are able to wager on sports with while they are in the NHL. They're just not allowed to wager on the NHL. That's interesting.

Shane Mercer [00:33:43]:

It isn't. I'm glad you brought up the NHL because I think that this is one of the more interesting leagues when it comes to this topic because about a decade ago there was a big time sports betting scandal. It involved Wayne Gretzky, it also involved Gary Bettman coming out and essentially saying that sports betting and hockey can't coexist, that the two aren't compatible with each other. And here we are a decade later and it's a complete about face. At that time you had Wayne Gretzky sort of denying any involvement of him or his wife involved in this betting scandal, saying that he's never done it, he's never participate in it. Now he's one of the lead spokespeople for for Bed MGM, you know, and you mentioned people being very disappointed. I think that that was one of the moments where people were were most disappointed by seeing the Great One sort of saying something completely different than what he did ten years ago.

Andrew Pace [00:34:46]:

Right. I mean, it's hard for me to feel that way myself. I just understand other people's perspectives because I look at this whole thing and I go, if there's a way for these books to provide people with true tools of value and still advertise in the fashion that they are, maybe, only maybe, it needs to be an 18 plus show. Or maybe it has to be a sporting event. Only maybe it can only be after a certain time of day. I don't know the answers to all that, but more or less continue to advertise and promote the sports books. But then at the same time there is this sort of coexisting world where player protection does exist. I look at it and I go all the power to them. They are businesses that do need to be profitable as long as they're providing those tools and resources to people and if they continue to use celebrity endorsers, so be it. But then of course, we individually have the ability to go, wow, I can't believe Wayne Gretzky actually did that. That to me is disappointing, or that to me is contradictory to obviously the scandal that he went through earlier. It's interesting to watch and you can really tell relative to other ads that you watch, they're really putting a lot of heart and soul into the production of these things because they're entertaining. There's a lot of good ones out there.

Shane Mercer [00:36:11]:

Yeah, they are entertaining. But another aspect of taking in the game, right, is the preshow and the show, right? And as somebody who's worked in broadcasting for quite a long time, but it's really interesting for me to watch this unfold because now what we're seeing is every sports broadcaster is now also a betting analyst, right? They are telling you, oh, here's my over, under prediction, here's my favorite parlay for this game, here's my favorite player prop, you know, and I think, you know, I think so and so is going to go over so many points this game, right? It is totally integrated into the broadcast now and depending on what you're watching, will determine what sports book is essentially being advertised. All of these broadcasts now have an affiliate sports book, right, that they're using for their odds to make these predictions. And I think most of them know the sports that they're talking about really well, but I'm not so sure. They know a whole lot about sports betting.

Andrew Pace [00:37:28]:

It almost leaves me speechless because I watch it every single day and being a pro bettor and seeing the advice that gets given, it's just shocking. And there's something actually really interesting about sports betting and perspective on everything is so key. But if you take the stock market over the course of history, we have all been trained that over the course of time the stock market goes up, right? But people make money consistently. A lot of hedge fund managers betting against stocks, so stocks to go down or specific companies to go down. Now, the inverse of that is sports betting. In theory, every single bet that you take, if you took it a thousand times or 10,000 times, you're going to consistently go down over time, much like playing blackjack or roulette or any other sort of casino game. But I know firsthand, some people don't think it's possible the house, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, house always wins, all that stuff. But you take the inverse of that and you go, okay, you actually can make money consistently over time. Doing the reverse analogy that I just gave of the stock market. But then you flip to these broadcasts and the same guy that just has the job is now giving you his pick at halftime. So last year he was the guy telling you that Patrick Mahomes has now gotten injured and thrown two touchdowns in the first half and you hope that he comes back in the second half that's now telling you what to bet on for the rest of the half of the football game. It's mind boggling to me. Absolutely mind boggling. I think it is one of the worst integrations in sports that you could possibly ever have. Not to mention, depending on the broadcast that you're watching, you may have two different people giving you the opposite bets. And as a viewer of that, I would feel lost and confused, because you're looking at this broadcast, which in a lot of cases is the same broadcast that's delivering you news after the game, which is supposed to be like reputable information about what's going on in the world in your area. And the guy that was just on before just told you to bet on something in an NFL game or a hockey game. Like, it's wild to me. They are not making people money over time. They're losing people money over time. So I think it's nuts that's happening. Absolutely nuts.

Shane Mercer [00:39:59]:

I think you really touched on something that I think is important to bring up. You feel lost and confused because you have multiple people in the same broadcast giving you conflicting information on how to bet. So not only do you feel lost and confused, but you're still being encouraged to bet. And that is a dangerous recipe for betting. If you're feeling that way while trying to make a wager. It's a perfect recipe if you're the sports book. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:40:30]:

Oh, absolutely. Obviously. Encourages betting, encourages betting on the site that they're promoting and encourages. I think a lot of our viewers have placed bets on sports. But how that works is, if you're a sports book, let's say that you got a million people to bet on the exact same thing at halftime. So every single person took the Kansas City Chiefs halftime spread, so it was called on the broadcast, and a million people bet on that. Well, the book is going to price it differently from the first bettor to the millionth bettor. Right. So it isn't like a roulette wheel where it's stagnant and it stays the same regardless of how many people bet on red. In this case, let's call Kansas City Chiefs. Red. The more people that bet on red, it's going to become worse and worse odds, and the line is going to move more and more. And what the sports book is doing there is they are hedging their risk associated with that bet. But what's crazy is if they don't hedge their risk and everyone bets on the Kansas City Chiefs minus five, per the broadcaster that pushed that pick. In theory, the book has a million to one for lack of keep all bet sizes constant because everyone's betting different amounts. But let's say all bet sizes are constant. The books now got a million to one on the plus side of that bet. If they leave it constant, they move the line so that other people get enticed by the opposite of that wager to balance their action and ensure a profit regardless of the outcome. But there is such I guess what I'm getting at is there is such remarkable upside to getting a mass group of people to all bet on a losing bet over time in the public. And that's precisely what's being pushed.

Shane Mercer [00:42:17]:

Wow. That's something that I think would be interesting to explore, is whether or not the sports books are telling these broadcasters what bets to promote, right. Or are these sports broadcasters just coming up with these bets all on their own? Which they may be, but it would be a very sort of dangerous territory, I think, for the big broadcasters to allow themselves to be influenced by the advertiser in that way, if that were to be happening. And I'm not sure that it is. I'm not saying that it is, but certainly now it's much more possible that it could happen than it could in the past, right?

Andrew Pace [00:42:57]:

And I mean, this is getting into, like, conspiracy, deep stuff, but as a professional, bettor. If that happened and you watch that line moved, then you could, in theory, get theoretical value on betting against all the public and getting a much better line at the end of those million bets that got made.

Shane Mercer [00:43:15]:

Right?

Andrew Pace [00:43:15]:

So we're at the very beginning of this, and when you look at let's bring back the stock market back into things, when you look at the regulation and what's going on in the stock market and what has happened from all the different the Bernie Madoff things on Netflix, tons of people have seen that. But all the different things that have happened in the stock market in a regulated space over the years and obviously what's gone on there and the corruption and all that kind of stuff, we don't have that in the sports betting world. But the parallels are there. There is an element to sports betting that is a lot like day trading when you are live and betting on sports, which is obviously what is being promoted. All these books are talking about live betting, live betting, live betting. So who knows what that's to bring in the future from a regulation standpoint, and obviously from the standpoint of money made versus lost, it'll be interesting.

Shane Mercer [00:44:12]:

I'm here for the ride, and I'm along with it. And we hope you, the audience, the viewers, the listeners will also be along for our ride as we kind of dissect these tactics, these strategies that the sports books are deploying to try to take your money. They want all our money. They want all the money. And so we hope that you guys will be along with us as we sort of try to help you navigate these waters while still having fun and enjoying the games and, yeah, making a few wagers on the side, and hopefully you'll win more wagers than you lose over time. That's the goal. So we've covered a lot of ground here today. Pace on the advertising front, we talked about all of the endorsements, the celebrity endorsements, how they're getting you on your phone and in your emails, and how they're rarely everywhere you go, whether it's the TV, the Internet, out in the public, on billboards and subways and buses and everywhere you go. So I guess it's something that's here to stay. The advertisements aren't going away, but the important thing is that you, the audience, the listeners, all of us know when they're not being totally truthful.

Andrew Pace [00:45:28]:

Well said, buddy. Well said.

Shane Mercer [00:45:31]:

With that, I think we're probably here to wrap up this episode. So Andrew Pace, founder of inplayLIVE, thank you so much for being a part of this. I really enjoyed the conversation. And you the audience, if you enjoyed this conversation, please like subscribe download. We're on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, you can find us everywhere that you get your podcasts. So please give us a little bit of love. And if you're interested in inplayLIVE and you want to become better and sort of learn more tips, strategies, tactics for improving your sports betting, then head to inplayLIVE. And we have a promo code for you ‘BEHINDTHELINES’. So please, if you're interested and that's something you want to do, use that promo code ‘BEHINDTHELINES’ at inplayLIVE. Pace, anything you want to add before we sign off here?

Andrew Pace [00:46:29]:

We have a ton of fun at inplayLIVE. We're a community of over 1000 sports bettors that are working against the books actively, and we are the ones fighting for the player both inside the community and outside the community. Inside the community, obviously, we're helping people to succeed over time. We have eclipsed over ten millionaires that were from nothing, so from sports betting and well into the hundreds of people that have eclipsed the six figure profit margin. So, yeah, use that promo code ‘BEHINDTHELINES’ and check us out. That's going to be the best pricing that you can get for all of our subscriptions. And super pumped. Shane, I'm super excited that you wanted to do this with me and the future is bright, my friend. So until next time, all right, stay sharp.

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