Episode 2

Shane Mercer [00:00:10]:

Hello and welcome to Behind The Lines, the sports betting podcast like no other. We aren't here to give you your parlay picks, your player props, your over unders or anything like that. I don't have tarot cards that are going to stare into the future but we are here to help make you, the audience, better bettors. We are here to expose the tactics of the sports books. We are going to walk through their strategies and all of the ways that they try to turn you, their customers, into long term losers. By exposing those tactics and strategies, we hope to help make you winners, long term winners. Winners over time and hopefully you'll add a little bit of money to your bankroll instead of losing your bankroll on a regular basis. I'm your host Shane Mercer. I'm a journalist with a career in hard news but I am a sports enthusiast and a sports betting hobbyist. I'm no professional though. That's why we have Andrew Pace, founder of inplayLIVE. He is a professional sports bettor and a very successful one at that. inplayLIVE, a community of more than 1000 people, many of them professional sports bettors and likely one of the most sophisticated sports betting communities in the world. Andrew, thanks so much for joining me again.

Andrew Pace [00:01:38]:

What's up? What's up? What's up?

Shane Mercer [00:01:41]:

So on our last episode we talked a lot about advertising and the tactics used by the sports books and just how prevalent the advertising is. I mean we talked about how it's everywhere and how a lot of the messages that they're putting out there aren't always totally truthful or accurate or might contain sort of hidden elements. But one thing that the sports books are not advertising at all in any way are the limits and restrictions that could be placed on your account. Yes, I'm talking about what happens when you win. Andrew, you are a professional. You've been winning at sports betting for a long time. What happens when you win?

Andrew Pace [00:02:34]:

Well, it's an interesting journey that's for sure. And I've found that from the standpoint of sustainability with being a winning bettor that you really have to dig into new bags of tricks. It's a cat and mouse game. In some cases it's a Whack a Mole game where you're constantly doing this give and take with the books because they don't like winners. Winners are bad customers to put it frank. And it's no secret that the betting world restricts or limits your account after a certain amount of profit that's come through it. In some cases actually, you can lose money and be restricted based on what you bet on. So yeah, it's definitely a tricky landscape to navigate. But also on that note being kind of the inplayLIVE side of things people that do have experience with some winning betting that then find us and are sort of looking for alternatives and things like that, they go, how are you able to do this sustainably? Because of the fact that they've been exposed to losing some accounts. And it feels like in that moment that you can't keep doing what you were doing, whatever it may be, given that it was providing you with some sort of income or maybe just short term money. But yeah, they don't like you. They don't like you.

Shane Mercer [00:03:58]:

No, they don't like you one bit. And as I mentioned, it's not something that they put out there. But if you do have any kind of success as a sports bettor. You are more than likely to encounter these scenarios where they reach out to you and they let you know that your account is being limited or it's being restricted, or you're not going to be able to have a cash out anymore, or you're not going to get bonuses anymore. They really sort of let you know that we don't want your business anymore. And Andrew, you've seen a lot of this?

Andrew Pace [00:04:35]:

Yeah, big time. And I mean it's much more than that, right? There's a lot of little things that can go on once they kind of categorize you as a sharp player or a winner. You see the promotions in your account go from available which is oftentimes like you have DK dollars or you have bet points or you have some sort of currency built up inside of the sports book that goes beyond the actual dollars that's redeemable for free bets or swag or whatever you may be saving that that might be money that you've legitimately or not. I shouldn't say money, but that might be something that you've sort of mentally built up. Like every time you go to the grocery store and you swipe your points, they go, hey, do you want to redeem some points today? You go, no, I'm saving up for the big trip to Hawaii or whatever the case may be. You might save those up and then they cut them off where they're not transferable anymore. Yeah, the cash out feature and other features promotions, like if they have some sort of parlay boost, that's a generic thing that they give to all players, you won't have access to that anymore. The list really goes on and on. Early payouts, like any type of promotion is now gone from your account. But then the big thing really is they restrict your ability to wager and when they restrict your ability to wager, that can be small bets only. So maybe you only place bets for a couple of dollars or even a couple of cents and that's your maximum amount that you can bet. Or they'll actually bring it right down to $0. You get categorized as a winning player and as such, you go to a different customer service line to ensure that you get the worst customer service that could possibly exist on planet Earth. From extraordinary long wait times to unexpected interruptions or disconnections to additional verifications beyond what the standard player initially needed to provide. You can send messages to the chat before you've played where you say, is my account fully verified? Yes, we have absolutely everything that we need from you. And then before you know it, you're back to the well, I've had to go to notaries to get letters stamped to verify my handwriting. I've had to take selfies, I've had to take videos with my head spinning. I've had to go to the bank and have the branch manager call the bank, the sports book saying that the transaction was going to my bank account and not someone else's. I've had to have the bank build custom documents where they stamp their bank stamp saying that I do in fact own that debit card that was deposited with. And I've had losses, I've had well into the six figures of money that was not paid out to me due to some sort of malfunction or misstep in some of those crazy verifications that have occurred. And I don't even think even in that little spiel that I just gave, I don't even think I've hit the tip of the iceberg of what they're capable of with respect to some of the challenges that they can make for you in getting your money. Now, the regulated market, we talked about that in last week's episode. The regulated market has improved these things. They still exist, but it has improved as a whole in the regulated spaces.

Shane Mercer [00:08:15]:

It's interesting to hear that it's improved in the regulated spaces, but I think when you talk to people in those regulated spaces that have any success and have done some winning, they're going to probably have a whole laundry list of complaints similar to what you just rhymed off there. But give us a sense because I think for a lot of sports bettors out there, especially many of our members of our audience here who are listening or watching, they may not have ever kind of experienced this before, and it's not something that has really been out there until recently. Although certain big publications like the Washington Post in which you're quoted in, and other publications like Forbes and some other big newspapers have started to kind of catch on, the New York Times have sort of started to sort of poke and prod at this issue of limits and restrictions. But for the most part, I think a lot of sports bettors out there don't know that these could happen if they were to win on a consistent basis. And so give us a sense of how that process unfolds. And I know that you've seen a whole bunch of emails and you've had people send you their emails that they've received. What do these emails look like?

Andrew Pace [00:09:23]:

Right, yeah, I think that there's so much to unpack with this stuff. I'll just share a screen from our inplayLIVE Instagram account, which of course you can follow our journey on at any time it's just adding @inplaylive on Instagram and all other socials for that matter. Here's one from bet three six five to one of our members. Following a review of your account by our trading team, we regret to inform you that whilst our online service remains available to you, betting restrictions will be applied and any future bets placed in the cash flow feature is no longer available to you. And then they list the things that are no longer available to you. But what they really don't list there is that you can only bet a couple of bucks now going forward. Also too what's referred to as your shot clock or Spooling, that's the amount of time it takes for you to actually click the button of the wager that you want to place and then the time, of course, that it's placed in. And the reason why Spooling exists is because if you're at a live match, you can gain a significant advantage over the sports books by doing what's called court siding, which is wagering on an event. When you've gained a statistical probability by already having watched the play. In some cases, the outcome actually being known versus other cases where the outcome is more likely based on the play that you just watched unfold. So for example, you see a ref's arm go up at the hockey rink and you slide in your favorite hockey team to win the period because you were able to gain a statistical advantage in seeing the refs arm go up before the books knew that there was a power play. Does that mean they're going to win? No. But did you gain a statistical advantage? Sure. So Spooling exists so that you don't have the ability to do that, or at least don't have the ability to do it on a consistent basis. And that's definitely something like that would be closer to the category of that you could argue would be cheating versus winning. And when people do that, you're going to get caught pretty damn quick. You might have a good day or two, and after that you're going to be shut down pretty quick. But the reason why I'm bringing all that up is because that is one of the things that will now be added as a restriction to your account that's actually not listed here. So you go to place a wager on a restricted account and you may have had a three second Spool spinner shot clock, maybe a five or six second spool spinner shot clock. It's not uncommon to see 30 to 60 seconds. And what the books can actually do inside of their dirty little bag of tricks in that moment is they can actually decide whether to place your bet or not. So they gain a statistical advantage on you. So they know that the ref's hand went up and you bet the wrong side of it. They're going to put your wager in the opponent scored against you during that spooling time. They'll spin your wager in anything advantageous to you that occurs during that spooling time. They're not going to spin your wager in. And like I said, that wager is going to be really small. I don't know how many photos we have here, but here's one from eight eight eight sport, which is also sports illustrated in Colorado. Sports bet IO, which is a crypto book, the classic bodog limitations. They can't tell you why your wagering limits have been adjusted. They just let you know that it has happened and the list goes on and on. We have a whole series of these from a number of different accounts. I have thousands myself personally. But, yeah, you can definitely check those out on our instagram and see the customer service that you get once you actually do enter the queue of being a winning player. Did that answer your question, Shane? I don't know. I feel like I could just go on forever with this.

Shane Mercer [00:13:03]:

Well, as you were scrolling through those, I was kind of looking at some of them and I'm thinking to myself, especially the bet 3651. At the beginning. There the person, robert, in this case, getting the email. And at the top there, you see his account balance, $2,000.

Andrew Pace [00:13:17]:

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.

Shane Mercer [00:13:19]:

It's not exactly life changing money. Sure, $2,000 is great. I'd love to have an extra two grand, who wouldn't? But is that something that is going to impact the sports book in any way, shape or form? I mean, clearly Robert has had some success. I'm assuming he didn't deposit $2,000 into his account and he kind of grew it from an amount, but he hasn't grown it to something that is outrageous or life changing or in a way that shows that he's doing this as a profession.

Andrew Pace [00:13:50]:

Right, and I think that's a really good point and it's something that's really unfortunate that's just happening way too much right now. And don't think that that's just bet three, six, five. I think, you know firsthand, Shane, for those of you that don't know, shane's actually a member of inplayLIVE that you call yourself a sports hobbyist, but I think you've done okay during your time and you've gotten a few emails of death as well yourself, right?

Shane Mercer [00:14:15]:

Yes, I've been cooked as well.

Andrew Pace [00:14:19]:

That happens. I think that the $2,000 is just such a good example because I've had it happen in losing accounts where I've lost money. And what it is, is just some of these traps that these books set out where they don't like what you bet on, but you're merely just walking into their store and purchasing one of the products that they have for sale and then being told that you're not welcome anymore. And yeah, $2,000, I mean, for some of you watching this, you're probably sitting there going like, gee, I've lost way more than $2,000 into my bet. Three, six, five account or into my respective account. And that's the thing. They'll let you lose infinite amounts, but they'll only let you win until they decide that they don't want you to win anymore. And then that's that, and then that's that.

Shane Mercer [00:15:02]:

So what does a professional like you do when you get an email like that? How do you move on? Where do you go from there? What comes next?

Andrew Pace [00:15:11]:

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. It's a loaded question for sure, because I think that from that standpoint, what comes next is a real journey that takes you down a lot of different paths. And for some people, they can hang their hat on going, okay, I made money sports betting, and I kind of have this badge or this token of honor where I got limited that proved that I succeeded in this arena. And then they go, that's enough for me. Now, for me, the journey, that was only the beginning. And you do a lot of different things and you do a lot of different things from the standpoint of doing what you need to do to continue to succeed in that space. So the first thing that I want to do is I want to do a huge shout out to three sports books that don't limit their players. Okay? So any of you that are watching this, they might not be available in your area, but for the most part, these books are available. And there are more books than this that don't limit players. The first is bookmaker. Bookmaker. EU. It's available, I think, all across the world. It's my personal favorite sports book from the standpoint of how they treat their players and the fact that you can continue to play. They've been providing live betting lines for over 30 years and are openly advertised that winners can play there. And just to quickly touch on how that's done is sharp sports books will label certain players as sharp players. They know that they're in that category and they allow the sharp players to control the lines from the standpoint of, if I place a bet, I'm going to put a more significant movement on that line than a losing player. And that allows the line to sharpen and balance out over time. And they have max spin amounts that are very transparent. So I might be able to place $400 on one particular market, but once I place that 1st $400, I'm not going to get the same number on my 2nd $400. So every $400 that I place, the line continues to sharpen and continues to sharpen. And as that happens on a mass level with potentially thousands or hundreds of thousands of players, they're taking in what's called a handle, which is the amount placed on that particular market. They're taking in a handle that as one side potentially sharpens, the other side softens, and then allows a player to then go into that side and go, okay, there's actually value now on this side because of how many players move the line on that other side. And what they do by doing that is they ensure profitability, but also for a player like myself, allows me to stay and sustainably play with them. I've cashed out over $100,000 from bookmaker in the last two weeks, and all my wagers that I take can be followed. Live with me at inplayLIVE so that you can wager with me in real time, which is really cool. The second book is Pinnacle, and the same system exists where they sharpen their lines as you're playing on their site. Same system there. And then the next one is Cloudbet, which offers all cryptocurrencies like you actually play with cryptocurrencies. So those are three really good options. I'm sure there are more, but those are three really good options from the standpoint of answering your question. And you go, where do you go next? Those ones are kind of like your long term solutions where you go, okay, I know I can play here now. You really have to enter an arena of being a top dog to be able to succeed on those books because they do let winners play and they are the sharpest books. So if you can beat them, you know that you're at the top of the list. The next thing is you find new books, right? And I look at this and I go from the standpoint, from the time frame of being a sports bettor in Canada that had access to these UK books before it technically legalized in Canada. And then now through the regulation of the United States and Canada and all the new books that have come. It seems to me like we're talking about this last episode. Everyone wants their hand in the cookie jar and wants their piece of the pie. There's all the regulated books and then there's all these other books that people just really do want a part of the sports betting world. And definitely, I think the crypto space as well has really opened up a whole series of other sports books that you can play with and transfer money into with their license in Carousel and Cayman Islands and all these crazy places that you can play with. And I'm not saying, hey, go play with those books. I'm just saying there's a lot of other options. So people lose their bet. Three, six five, it's their heart and soul. It's the best book, it's the user friendly, it's the brand new iPad versus the rotary phone. But there are other options out there. And there's books that do limit players, but that will have a much longer leash and will treat you really well while you're there. And books like three, six, five, the way they treat their winners and their players for that matter, I think is downright disgusting. So I would encourage all people to take as much money from them as you possibly can by winning while you're there and move on happily.

Shane Mercer [00:20:20]:

I remember it wasn't that long ago when I got that email from Bet Three six Five, letting me know that my account was going to have all of these restrictions and limitations placed on it. And I'll be honest, I was a little bit lost at first. I was like, wait a minute, this is my main sports book here. This is what I use on a regular basis and now I can't use it anymore. And I really did feel a little bit, like I said, lost and uncertain of what to do next. But being in Ontario, I realized, no, I've got access to a lot of alternative books that I can go to and use. And I understand why people love three six five and the affinity that people have. First of all, once you start using it, it's got a lot of markets for one, but the interface is great and you sort of become familiar with it. And when you're doing something like sports betting, it's nice to use something familiar. But once you realize that, hey, there are all these other options out there and I don't need to limit myself to this one book, a whole new world kind of opens up. So that was my personal experience. But Andrew, I want to dive into something that you brought up there about how the sports books identify you as a sharp bettor or alternatively, as a losing bettor. I think a lot of sports bettors out there don't realize that the books are very closely monitoring you. They are tracking you. They are looking at every wager you place and they're categorizing you. And it may not be a human doing this, there's an algorithm involved and technology involved, but I think a lot of people out there don't even realize that that's happening.

Andrew Pace [00:22:13]:

Yeah, you join a new site and you're kind of yellow at that time, you're new and yellow, and then they're going to move you into green or red from there based on how you play. And then if you can get into the losing category where you can potentially get great promotions and have the opportunity to make some money and have a long leash, there's eventually a time that they're going to swing you up into the other end of things and realize that you are a sharp player. And how they do it is obviously the simplest form is, hey, you've got a positive balance and you're winning money. But the other way is actually they have markets that are out there that if you click on it and you bet it, whether you win or lose is irrelevant. The market is a trap. Handle. So I was talking about handle when I was talking about bookmaker, handle is a big part to do with it. So, I don't know, let's say that you were up at four in the morning and you found this obscure Polish ping pong match to bet on. And not only did you find that obscure match to bet on, but you also found that there was a loophole where perhaps we talked about court siding earlier in this I don't know, perhaps one site showed you the match before the lines were available on another site. Or perhaps you knew something about that game that was a statistical advantage to what lines were being offered. You might be the only person live betting that in the world. So even a $50 wager would be considered a larger wager, and you can quickly get yourself burned by not blending in. The flip side to that is something like the Super Bowl, which obviously we just watched last week, the money coming in on the Super Bowl, the handle is unbelievable. You can blend into that money like moss on a like Michael Scott would say, like moss on a Mississippi tree stump. So where and how you bet as a sharp player is very important. And that's what you start to realize as well. There's certain sports like ATP men's tennis, australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, the handle is enormous. Champions League soccer or European football, the handle is enormous. AHL hockey, there's not much handle on that. You're going to stick out like a sore thumb if you're betting anything with anything significant.

Shane Mercer [00:24:36]:

Yeah, we talked a lot about the limits and restrictions that got placed on you and how they identify you as a sharp bettor, but there shouldn't be rules necessarily against being a sharp bettor, like, oh, I'm a good bettor, and now you don't want me here. So we know that we can go to other books and there's other books out there, and maybe eventually, though, they'll identify you as a sharp bettor and limit you over there. There is another avenue that people can go down, especially if you're in a jurisdiction that's regulated. You can appeal these limits and restrictions. You can reach out to the regulator. I'm in Ontario, the regulator is called Igaming, and it's sort of a wing of the AGCO, the Alcohol and Gaming Corporation of Ontario. What's your experience been like? Or what sort of stories have you heard about people who want to appeal their limits and restrictions and are reaching out to the regulator?

Andrew Pace [00:25:31]:

Right, so the good news on that front is that we've heard some success stories. We've actually heard of people who have reached out to their regulators where the regulator has gotten involved. And for someone like myself, where I've said I've lost well into the six figures of money that hasn't been paid out, those are unsuccessful attempts where I've gone to a regulator like eCOGRA, which is, I believe in Malta, but I'm not 100% sure, who cares? They've gone to the regulator. The regulator has gotten involved and the regulator has sided with the player. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that for the most part what we're seeing is generic responses that do not protect the player. That side with the sports book being its own independent and private business and ultimately leaving the player feeling hopeless, which sucks.

Shane Mercer [00:26:23]:

Yeah. And I mean the regulator is supposed to be there to protect the player, to protect the average person. But I think in many jurisdictions what we see is that the regulator there is to make life easy for the sports book so that government can benefit from the tax revenues that the sports book is generating and that the sports book wants to operate in that jurisdiction wherever it may be. Do you have any tips or strategies though for how to appeal to a regulator?

Andrew Pace [00:26:59]:

Yeah, absolutely. So I think we have some really good resources on the inplayLIVE website. I'll just pull this up here. So this is just an article that's on our website that we'll link below this episode. But basically this is a tremendous resource where if you actually scroll through the article, you can click on this link right here and what it's going to bring you to is a Google Doc where basically, no matter where you are. As long as you're in a regulated environment, you're going to get the direct link to who you're actually going to appeal to in your area. Now also on the article is kind of a step by step process that you can follow but I'll just kind of speak on it really quickly. What you're going to do first and foremost is whatever happened to you, you're going to contact the sports book first. So you have to give the sports book the opportunity to actually fix the issue that occurred to you. In some cases you might get an explanation there where what they provide you with is valid. So they fix your problem or they give you an explanation where you go, okay, Aya is the player was actually wrong in this particular case. But what can happen in that process, and this is very rare, is they review your account and actually they unlock it, they remove the restrictions. It's extremely rare. I've seen it happen. I wouldn't count on it. Provided that they don't do what you want them to do, you're going to then basically get a complaint number from them and you let them know that you're going to be filing that complaint with the regulator in your area and then you take that complaint number again. Now you're in the worst customer service channel imaginable. So I just made that sound simple. That might be two to three weeks of messaging them every single day and I'm not kidding. But the thing is that in order to create this fairness that we're seeking, in order to create this balance and this coexistence where players are adequately protected, these are the steps that you as a sports bettor must take for the betterment of all of us. But also the people coming up behind you. So bring that complaint number to the regulator. Almost every website has a basic form that you can fill out. You file, put that complaint number in any screenshots, any details associated with your particular case, and then you submit that. And that's the generic process. Each location might be a little bit different, but I would highly recommend that anyone that's had any sort of malpractice limitations mistreatment to follow that process.

Shane Mercer [00:29:39]:

It sounds like quite a process and it sounds like if you're going to go down this route, which is noble, it is a good idea to go down it. If this is a space that you enjoy and you're having fun and you like sports betting, but at the same time it does sound like it's a bit of work. So people should have that expectation that this is going to be perhaps a frustrating process. It may be longer than you think it should be or will be, and it's not going to happen overnight and you may not win at all. This might be a fight that you're going to lose, but having that expectation and being persistent with it is worth it. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

Andrew Pace [00:30:34]:

Well, there's a country in Europe that won the battle in Spain. They're not allowed to put these limitations on your betting accounts, which gives me hope. It gives me hope. But the flip side to it is the sports books have really had to figure out how to operate profitably in those areas. And I can't be quoted on this, but my understanding is that the profits dropped by about like two thirds. So 66, 67%. I can't be quoted on that, but I know it's significant. Still profitable, but came down significantly. And that's where I believe that that is a landscape that now you can truly promote because you're not discriminating against any one particular type of player. That's, again, I'll use the analogy that's simply going into your shop and using the services that you're providing.

Shane Mercer [00:31:28]:

Yeah. And I just want to mention that resource that you showed there, what an incredible resource that is for anyone out there. If you don't know who your regulator is or what your complaint process is, what a resource to be able to go to and look up and sort of be able to find. So kudos on you guys over there for putting that together. That looks like an incredible document there. Sorry, where can people find that again?

Andrew Pace [00:31:52]:

Well, we'll link it below, but if you just go to our website inplaylive.com and you click on News, it's under the news feed that we've posted there.

Shane Mercer [00:32:01]:

Yeah, great resource there. So there is another option here and I'm sort of not sure how to characterize it, so I'll kind of let you do that. But it's an interesting idea and I know people out there are doing it just from my involvement in this space, and we know it's happening. But talk to me about mule accounts. And I got to say, that term mule really conjures up real kind of negative images, stereotypes, ideas. My mind goes to narcotics right off the bat. So if you're a member of the RCMP or the DEA or border services agencies, we are not talking about those kind of mules.

Andrew Pace [00:32:49]:

Right.

Shane Mercer [00:32:50]:

But tell us a little bit about what is a mule account?

Andrew Pace [00:32:53]:

Well, a mule account would be as just a generic example. Bet three six five put restrictions on my personal account, so I'm going to use my buddy's account instead. So it's the idea of continuing to use new names on the accounts that have limited yourself personally, which is, you know, what's really interesting when you get to start talking about this kind of stuff is we're sitting there on the broadcast, right, and they tell us that they want us to take a bet at halftime. And they send that bet out to thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people, depending on what you're watching and when you're watching it. If those bets win consistently over time, they will then correlate the accounts and potentially use that as a reason I don't want to say not to pay you, but they'll potentially use that as a reason to make your life more difficult. But it's what the sports books love more than anything. You'll see it constantly some sort of refer, a friend bonus on a site, some sort of share this link to get this free bet in your account, or a percentage of their bet, all that kind of stuff. And they want you to play and play and play. You go into the chat and you say, hi there. My wife and I would like to sign up for accounts. Is it permitted for my wife and I to both register for accounts on your website in the same household address? The response isn't just yes, it's like, oh my God, we'd love to have you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And then boom, you both win a bit of money and they correlate you because you use the same IP address, the same WiFi. So they promoted you to play together, but then used the same WiFi or the same address as a reason for you to not continue to play. But player one could be down even and player two be the one that they correlated you with. So if you're not both losing, then you don't continue to live in this ecosystem of them continuing to want your action and getting all their bonuses and promotions and all the other things that you do, which is just insane. So that's why I bring that up with the idea of mules, because the first person that you would turn to typically well, I shouldn't say typically the betting world is very much full of people that unfortunately aren't honest with their families and their spouses and things like that relating to betting. But as a winning player, the first person that you turn to typically is going to be your wife, your spouse, whatever, your family, your best friends, that kind of thing. And oftentimes those are the people that actually live in your address that upon sign up, they encourage you to play with.

Shane Mercer [00:35:49]:

Yeah, it's funny you bring that up when you're a losing player. It's not something you really want to share and you don't talk about it. And if you have a real problem, you'll be trying to hide it from your spouse or the people you live with or your family. But as soon as you're a winning player, you tend to want to share that information. A lot of people want to brag and talk about it. And as you mentioned, the sports books want you to do that, right? They want you to share your stories of winning on their books, to bring in other people, to bring in your friends, to bring in your family. But as soon as you're winning too much and it could be that you did bring in your wife and your wife is betting and so are you, but she's doing it on a much more sort of casual, recreational way and she's losing or he's losing and then you're the one winning. But both accounts get cooked, so to speak.

Andrew Pace [00:36:53]:

Maybe not right away, but you're on their radar really fast and you could definitely have a much shorter leash as a result of something like that. Since we're on this whole topic, I think it's also important to bring up, because we did just talk about Spain, is that from a regulator standpoint, when you look at all of that, I personally and I've seen the reactions of so many people when I talk to them about this stuff face to face. And there is this sort of sense of like what? Really? They do that it feels wrong. Right. And from a regulator standpoint, you go in a regulation, legislation, all that stuff, you kind of go, why is this allowed? How is this acceptable? And it goes back to the fact that the sports books profits and how they run their business is of course then providing tax dollars to those respective governments. But you go back to Spain and you go, okay, so if you are a winning player and you can't get limited and everyone has the same limits across the board, couldn't you just tax the winning players and continue? To get the same revenue from the then players that won. And then they don't have to get forced to go look for other ways to continue to play. So I don't need to use my wife's account or I don't need to use my boyfriend's account because of the fact that I am in a level playing field and I know that my winnings are then taxable after a certain amount. Like if you're a recreational player and you hit a parlay, I'm sure you're a net loser. I'm not referring to that, I'm referring to the consistent profits. Right. So I think there is a better way to go about all this. I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I'm sure there's a better way.

Shane Mercer [00:38:37]:

And on this topic of mules, though, there's also the idea of having a mule account of somebody that isn't in your home, right, and it is somewhere else. And I'm not suggesting people out there do that as a way to go around. I think you want to stay within the law wherever you are, but people are doing that, right?

Andrew Pace [00:38:59]:

Yeah, I don't think it's something that would be considered to be illegal in any capacity. We're specifically on the topic of winners and then what winners do and the options that they have. And the simple reality is that if you lose an account and you go, hey, I can use my buddy's account over here, now that happens all the time. And the sports books know that too. We're not saying something that they don't know about. They very much know about it and they have a number of different ways to catch you as soon as you've done it.

Shane Mercer [00:39:26]:

Yeah, and that's the thing, right. They can catch on to even that. So is there a way to kind of get around that?

Andrew Pace [00:39:33]:

Yeah, yes and no. Technology is changing constantly, right. So when you log into these sports books now, you see all these geoguards and location services get someone in the same building in a major city, whether it's different players, but then if one keeps coming back there and it keeps being a winner, that they keep shutting down. You're going to get hammered on pretty quickly if you continue to appear in that one same building, right? And then people turn to VPNs, right? They go, oh, I'll just VPN and then I'll be in a different location. They have technology and software to block all that kind of stuff. That's like the kitty game down the road. So if you're thinking like, oh, I'm going to get ahead of the books with that mentality, no, that ain't it. But from a simple standpoint, what you want to do is you want to make sure that this is for your own personal accounts. You want your own personal account to be in your name with money coming from your bank account, where everything associated with it is your IP address, your device and your WiFi. So if you have a buddy that comes over to your place all the time and he has your IP address because he's using your WiFi and he's sharing your computer to do similar bets that you're making, you have just created a trap for yourself. And the only way that you're going to continue to get to play like that is if you're losing. So if you have a brand new account. You want to make sure it's a brand new device with a brand new IP address with brand new, not brand new, but I'm saying the own individual bank accounts of that person. Everything needs to be connected to that person. And if you don't follow those exactly perfectly, they without question know if you think that you fooled them with a new crypto wallet, they know you can send money to, let's say you use an offshore book like Bodog or Bovada that uses crypto as a deposit method, and you send it from one crypto wallet to your personal account. And then you go, hey, I'm going to now open another account in this name and you have a new wallet, ID, or code, and you send it over to that new. Everything has to be clean, legit, and in that person's name or they will catch you sooner or later.

Shane Mercer [00:41:45]:

Yeah, you mentioned the VPN strategy. I think probably that might be a place where a lot of people go right off the bat, but I can tell you here in Ontario it's Geolocation, right. So not only can you not use a VPN to sort of circumvent that, but the geolocation technology makes it so that if it even detects that your computer has a VPN capability, it wants nothing to do with you.

Andrew Pace [00:42:11]:

Right. And I mean, honestly, what I've said is the tip of the iceberg. There's been major cases that have been solved relating to crimes. The Unabomber being example with handwriting and how handwriting, and the way you specifically write one letter within all of your other letters being a determining factor in actually prosecuting someone. People don't know this, but you have an online signature in the way that you navigate a website. And all of these betting sites have software that shows how you move on your phone, how you move on your website, and how you navigate it. And that alone can be enough to limit you from one account to the next.

Shane Mercer [00:42:55]:

Wow, it's crazy. I think a lot of people out there wouldn't be thinking about that kind of technology or that they're tracking them in that kind of a way.

Andrew Pace [00:43:04]:

Yeah, well, that's the world of AI. Too, now that we're in, right. Where the sky is the limit with respect to what you can get something to do and track and database and all that kind of stuff.

Shane Mercer [00:43:17]:

Very quickly, if you do have a mule account and this is an avenue that you have decided to go down and they're not in your house, how do you communicate with the sports book? Like, let's say something comes up and you want to cash out. How do you do that? You get the person you're working with to sort of reach out to them.

Andrew Pace [00:43:33]:

Well, yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, most books have a live chat feature, but yeah, again, I go back to everything that I just said. Doesn't matter if it's your account or someone else's account, it should all be that person that's interacting and using it. And that way you can't lose. In that sense. You're doing it all by the book then, right?

Shane Mercer [00:43:57]:

Well, with that, we've covered a lot of ground here today and I think we've sort of discussed a wide range of what happens when you win. Getting limits, restrictions. The purpose of this podcast is to help you, the audience, learn how to navigate what the sports books are going to be throwing at you, the tactics, the strategies that they're going to deploy. And as you learn to sort of navigate those waters, we hope that you're going to become a winning bettor or at least win a little bit. But you need to be prepared for these limits and restrictions that the sports books are going to throw at you after you start winning and gaining some traction and making a little bit of money. And so we've covered off some of the routes that you can take, like appealing those restrictions and reaching out to your regulator. That was a great resource that Andrew shared with all of us on the inplayLIVE website that you can go to. And that is, I think what we would encourage you to absolutely do is that if you do get limited, restricted in any way, reach out to the regulator, at least make it known that this has happened to you. Because if you don't, then nothing good can come of it. There's no path to change. And so we really encourage you to do that. And if you are going down the mule route and opening up mule accounts, be very cautious and recognize that the sports books are tracking all of this information and the way you move online. So something to be aware of. Andrew, anything else that the audience can take away?

Andrew Pace [00:45:40]:

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that all of that can be pretty daunting where you just go, this isn't worth it. I can assure you that net of the headaches that we've kind of touched on today, it's 100% worth it. And on top of that, we have best practices that are included in the inplayLIVE membership that we can definitely look at touching on in future episodes. Shane, that I think we could really dive into, and that is before being limited, what can you do to protect yourself? And all of that is obviously a big part of our seven hour master class that's included in your subscription with inplayLIVE. And those best practices have caused what I like to call a lot of banner accounts, where we've had single accounts of some of our members at inplayLIVE reach over seven figures from doing some of these best practices that then allow a longer leash where you actually can win money on books that limit yes, to the tune of seven figures. My personal best is 337,000 and I haven't really come too close to matching that with any other book, but, yeah, there's definitely been some banner accounts in the group by following these processes. I know it's daunting, but there is still the opportunity to obviously succeed net of all of this.

Shane Mercer [00:47:02]:

Yeah. No, that's incredible, Andrew. When you think that that's possible and that you can reach that kind of generate that level of winnings, it's just unbelievable. Thank you so much for participating and sharing all this insight and these strategies. We hope that from listening to this podcast, that you will be traveling down this path of turning yourself from a losing bettor to a winning bettor, perhaps winning as much as Andrew has just mentioned. We hope that you're walking that path and heading in that direction, and we hope this podcast is helping you along in that way. So if you like it, please like it. Subscribe, download, share, tell your friends. And if you're interested and you want to learn more and really kind of jump into this rabbit hole and go down, join inplayLIVE, check out the website, have a look at everything that's out there, and we will give you a promo code ‘BEHINDTHELINES’. Use the promo code and you'll get a discount, and you can learn much, much more because this podcast is literally just scratching the surface. Right, Andrew?

Andrew Pace [00:48:18]:

Absolutely.

Shane Mercer [00:48:20]:

All right, well, thanks again, and until next week, stay sharp.