Episode 106

Matt Holt [00:00:00]:

Hey. Shane just opened up 23 new accounts today. Each one of them, he put 10,000 in. And in each case, he put all 10,000 in the first set of a tennis match. Boy, we should take a look at that. That. Like, what Shane doing.

Andrew Pace [00:00:15]:

You know what's crazy about that, though, is I think about myself getting information like that and how I would handle it. And I'm like, jeez. Like, make it more obvious. You know what I mean? Like, that's nuts.

Welcome [00:00:27]:

You're listening to Behind the Lines, a podcast presented by inplayLIVE and powered by Pinnacle, the number one sports book where winners play and never get limited. Go to pinnacle.com/inplaylive to sign up and get in the game.

Shane Mercer [00:00:47]:

Welcome in. It's behind the lines powered by Pinnacle and purifying the sports betting industry. I'm Shane, he's Pace, on today's show. Integrity in sports betting. Alberta expected to become fully regulated and the first pinnacle contest winner. Stay tuned for the end of the show. We'll find out who has won the first part of the year long pinnacle contest.

Shane Mercer [00:01:17]:

So stay tuned for that. We're about to give away a thousand USD here on the show. Wow. Alright. Pace, we've got a great guest on the show. It's a fascinating conversation about integrity in sports betting in North America. Matt Holt gonna join us in just a bit. But, Pace, first, I just wanna bring up this little piece of news that's come across last week.

Shane Mercer [00:01:36]:

The province of Alberta introduced its regulated market sports betting legislation. It is going to work its way, through the Alberta legislature. And, potentially, by the end of this calendar year 2025, Alberta could finally become a fully regulated, province. It would become, I guess, the the third technically with Ontario, Quebec, and and now potentially, Alberta sort of joining it. It's legislation very much, modeled after what we've done here in Ontario. And that means that, you know, a lot of those regulated, sportsbooks would be able to to enter that market. And, you know, you could get the Bet three six fives, the FanDuels, the Draft Kings, all all those sort of ones that that they, that that we all have come to know and love over the over the years, available in Alberta without issue. It feels like a long time coming for that province.

Andrew Pace [00:02:36]:

Yeah. I mean, when Ontario regulated, everyone was like, Alberta's next, and it felt like it was gonna be a month. You know? So I don't know.

Andrew Pace [00:02:45]:

I guess yeah. I is it a positive thing? I I I don't even know if it is anymore. Like, I love the books I have, the ability to access in BC. So if you get to keep those and then you get the regulated ones, it's hugely positive. If you'd get the regulated ones in exchange for, getting rid of those, it's probably not super positive. But it sounds like, Shane, in Ontario, you get access to almost everything that I have plus plus.

Shane Mercer [00:03:07]:

It it's, so I think we have something like 50 operators, and they're providing in the area, I think, of 80 different services. So so, you know, we're talking there there's a lot of options out there. A lot of that is sort of casino play and that kind of thing, but a ton of them are you know, have at least given it a go in the sports betting realm. You know, we've also seen quite a few excerpts as well. Fitzdares, I think, becoming one of the latest to to leave. And, they invited me to play at Powerplay. But we can go play at Powerplay. Exactly.

Shane Mercer [00:03:40]:

So it sounds like, you know, they've left, but they've come up with a bit of a plan or a partnership with Powerplay to send customers their way probably for some kind of, you know, financial gain there. You know, so it's a it's a it's a big, market. There there's a lot of players, but the players are kinda coming and going. And I'm sure Alberta will sort of see, you know, a similar kind of kind of, you know, a sort of similar situation sort of play out where a lot where where, you know, you get all the big names come in and probably establish a foothold, but you get a lot of those lesser known names come in and try to take their little piece of the Alberta pie and and perhaps not make it. But that presents great opportunity for, a lot of people, a lot of our members who are who are in Alberta.

Andrew Pace [00:04:26]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Nothing wrong with getting some more sports books.

Shane Mercer [00:04:29]:

Yeah. Okay. Pace, we're gonna be giving away a thousand, USD here on the show. It's, the pinnacle contest, for everybody out there who who's not familiar with it. What you had to do was place a $10 wager, on Pinnacle over the course of the last three months. And now that the first quarter of the year is over, anybody who screenshotted their $10 wager and sent it into us became eligible to win a thousand USD that gets deposited directly into their Pinnacle account. We will do that at the end of the show. Pace, but is there anything you wanna say about it first, but before we get to our guest?

Andrew Pace [00:05:10]:

Well, this is quarter one. So quarter 2 now starts. So we are now accepting entries for quarter two. And if you entered in quarter one, you are not entered for quarter two. So you just join our Discord server. You DM Raj a minimum $10 wager, with, you know, your whole account showing so that we we, we have your user ID of your Pinnacle account, and, that's how you enter. And we'll be doing this again in a few months. And, Shane, are we adding any money to that one with your bracket? Or

Shane Mercer [00:05:41]:

I don't think the finalized promo bracket is gonna be the the dream is done. Reality has set in. Yeah. Reality set in. That dream is over. I mean, I I will say that it it it probably had a really good chance, but it it's unlikely to win because there's other people with the same with the same picks that have gone just as far and have done a little bit better with the bracket.

Andrew Pace [00:06:01]:

So it's officially over. Okay.

Shane Mercer [00:06:03]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's basically done. Yeah. So it I wanna say it's officially over. I mean, you know, but yeah. The math the math won't math on that one.

Andrew Pace [00:06:10]:

Yeah. So it'll be, so what we've decided to do, it'll be April, May, June. We'll do the next giveaway. And then the the the next one after that, we're actually gonna hopefully do live at at BetBash. So it won't be broken perfectly into quarters.

Shane Mercer [00:06:25]:

Okay. That's that's pretty cool. Alright. So stay tuned, everybody, till the end of the show. You will find out who that lucky winner is. But for now, let's bring in our guest. Matt Holt is a former CEO of US Integrity and IC three sixty. He's also the founder and an integrity advocate.

Shane Mercer [00:06:47]:

Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on.

Matt Holt [00:06:49]:

Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Shane Mercer [00:06:52]:

Really excited to have you on. You know, just right off the top, I wanna get your your take on the integrity landscape in sports betting in North America. Where would you say it's at?

Matt Holt [00:07:04]:

Well, I think if you compare it to where we were at prior to the repeal of PASPA, you could say, wow. We've made unbelievable leaps and bounds. But I think as somebody who's been there on the front lines of this battle, I could also say that we have a long way to go. So I think we're halfway through the race here. When we think about some of the integrity issues in sports, Boston College, Toledo, Arizona State, and Headache Smith, I mean, they some of those were really rudimentary in how those people got caught, and a lot of them got caught because they got wrapped up another criminal enterprises, and then somebody cut a deal and spilled the beans on this match fixing. But we didn't we weren't catching very many for a long time. And then after the repeal of PASPA, 05/14/2018, with most of these states putting integrity mandates in place, You know, when I started, US Integrity for those six years, twenty eighteen to to 2024, we were averaging 15 to 20 alerts a month. An alert means when we'd only send an alert out to the entire industry, operator, and every regulator, when something really is right there, we're, like, 95% sure something's wrong or it's already been proven that something's wrong.

Matt Holt [00:08:23]:

So you figure we were going from one every three years to 15 or 20 a month, and I still think we have such a long way to go. I I still think there's so much more data to analyze and investigate that we weren't. You know, there are a couple of states that had data mandates. For the most part, though, they didn't. And without collecting every bet, it's really difficult for an individual sportsbook to recognize whether an individual bet on a popular game is abnormal or suspicious. But if you told that same sportsbook that took a $20,000 bet on, you know, I don't know, who's playing Red Sox, Orioles today on the 01/2005 something. If you say, hey. Do you know that same account, that same individual made 22 different $20,000 bets at different properties? They'd go, wow.

Matt Holt [00:09:12]:

Why didn't they try to bet $200 grand at one property? Why are they spreading it out so much? Or why were there 19, new accounts created just to bet this one particular market? And so there's lots of things that when you aggregate the data, you can identify as abnormal and then have a human being further investigate. So I still think there's a long way to go, but kudos to the industry because we've already come so far from where we were just ten, fifteen years ago.

Andrew Pace [00:09:42]:

Can you can you give us an example of that process in an actual case that we would know a little bit more about? Sure. So, like, for example, that initial data came in, what it looked like, and then where where it went from there?

Matt Holt [00:09:57]:

Yeah. I think there's been one that sort of resurfaced recently, which was a UFC case. It was a fight, I think it was November 22, Derek Minner, Nuwerde and Bieke. And we were getting seeing unbelievable amounts of money coming in on the favorite Nuwerde and Bieke. And, we are also seeing an unbelievable amount of money come in on him to win by first round knockout, and this is a guy who had never won by knockout in the UFC. So that's pretty abnormal to not only win by knockout, but specifically win by first round knockout. And then we were seeing an abnormally large amount of new accounts being opened for people just to bet on that fight on the different markets. So we sent an alert out to the entire industry.

Matt Holt [00:10:44]:

A lot of the industry took the fight down. And then come and then if you watch the fight, it's really crazy. It almost looks really fixed when you watch it. The underdog that Derek Minner kid goes to throw a kick and misses and goes down holding his leg like he's hiding in pain, realizes that he misses, gets back up, throws another kick because, you know, if your if your leg's really that busted, the first thing you do is throw a kick again, Throws another kick immediately after he throws it, goes down again holding that same leg writhing in pain. At least this one sorta landed. So you could say maybe it got hurt. And then he just shelled up, and the other guy's like, what do I do? Do I hit him? Like, what the heck's going on here? And the ref finally stopped it. We'll come to find out that the fighter had hurt himself in training, and he had five kids.

Matt Holt [00:11:37]:

You know, this was a guy who had never made more than 20,000 in a year in MMA in his life, just had his fifth child. And The U UFC has a rule where if you get hurt during a fight, they pay for your surgery. If you get hurt in training, you're on your own. So supposedly and, you know, we can't verify this with a % certainty, but there's evidence that says it. Mhmm. And the fighter's trainer, James Krause, who's been banned from the UFC since, told him, reminded that fighter, hey. Basically, if, you know, if you say that it's hurt during the fight, then they'll pay for your surgery. And this is something that's been rumored to happen in the past.

Matt Holt [00:12:16]:

Guys goes guys go in with injuries, preexisting lie on their physicals, and then say that they got hurt during the fight.

Andrew Pace [00:12:25]:

Sure.

Matt Holt [00:12:25]:

I think it started off as, hey. I'm gonna keep I'm gonna take the fight anyway even though I know I can't really fight just to get my surgery paid for. And then later turned into a scheme of, well, if you're going to already know that you're going to lose the fight because you can barely stand up on one leg, why not make sure you go down in round one, say that your legs hurt due to injury, and we people can make all this money betting by first round knockout. But by the industry coming together, being so diligent, monitoring the wagering activity, understanding it was abnormal, watching the fight, doing the investigative work, and talking to the appropriate folks after, the whole scheme was uncovered. Right? Minner was released and suspended. Krauss was banned permanently from the UFC. Another fighter involved in the bull on in the betting, Jeff Molina. The reason this story resurfaced recently, and I thought it was a good example, is Jeff Molina's suspension is just about to come up.

Matt Holt [00:13:26]:

Now his three year suspension is just about over. So, you know, the gaming commissions have been thinking about whether to reinstate him or not, and Molina was an undefeated fighter at the time. So they thought some people thought he may try for reinstatement, whereas, you know, Derek Minner's done, James Krause is done. But but that's why the story resurfaced. But it all started with monitoring the abnormal bedding activity and then have human beings digging into it.

Andrew Pace [00:13:56]:

Oh, okay. So let let's let's stay on this example for a second. I just have to clarify one thing. This fighter did this to get his surgery paid for. He didn't get funded by

Matt Holt [00:14:07]:

At first.

Andrew Pace [00:14:08]:

Okay. So he ended up still being someone that in theory would have profited had he have gotten away with this.

Matt Holt [00:14:14]:

Yes.

Andrew Pace [00:14:15]:

From the insider betting or whatever the hell you wanna call it. Okay. Because So I was just thinking to myself. I'm like, seems a little strange to throw this all for a surgery. But, anyways, okay. That that's cool information. Now when it comes to the betting itself, so you're talking about these patterns being identified, the accounts being opened, all that kinda stuff. I think that makes perfect sense.

Andrew Pace [00:14:39]:

Now this guy goes down. The fight gets ruled how it gets ruled. Are these bettors all paid out? Like, where did it go from there?

Matt Holt [00:14:46]:

So in this case and that's why it's so important, and that's why almost every state has integrity mandates. And the mandates are that the licensed operators, you know, FanDuel, DraftKings, MGM, Caesars, any licensed sports book operator has to contract with a licensed integrity monitor. And the reason is for fights like this. So there are, instances in most regulations and laws where if there's an alert sent out by your integrity monitor, the sportsbook can then hold all of those bets. Because otherwise, the sportsbook has to pay every bet. Whether it's, you know, obvious error, egregiousness, whatever, they have to pay these bets to customers. It's the law. But if there's an alert from an integrity monitor, you can hold the bets pending investigation.

Matt Holt [00:15:32]:

So in this case, most of those bets were held up. And in some cases, you're like, well, how much money were these guys able to get down?

Andrew Pace [00:15:40]:

Yeah.

Matt Holt [00:15:40]:

So we were working with some law enforcement agencies, and there were guys that at one particular book in a state, and they hit 15 or 16, got $900 down at one book. What? You know, $700. Yeah. I mean, we're not talking these guys are spreading around 3 to 5,000. It was millions of dollars from individual bettor and betting groups in some cases. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:16:05]:

What what's sportsbooks taking $900,000 on a first shot knockout to come is they'll shitty UFC.

Matt Holt [00:16:10]:

Yeah. They'll let you bet a hundred grand on the fight. In this case, I think one of the books took $300 on the fight itself, then another, like, $50 on the prop markets. And then what they start doing is betting that favorite with the biggest NFL favorites and the biggest college football favorites in parlays. So, hey, I can't bet it again straight. I already hit my limit, but I could do a hundred k parlay with Alabama and Newerda and BK Georgia and And now you can basically have unlimited ability to keep piling on bets, and you're just adding in huge money line favorites so that you can keep betting that one fighter in the in The USA.

Shane Mercer [00:16:50]:

Wow. Yeah. I mean, it makes you know, you could you could see it sort of play out that way, and that's how that's how, you know, guys would end up being able to to get down. And that's a great example there too that that you shared. I know, in Ontario here, they pulled MMA betting.

Matt Holt [00:17:06]:

And the UFC for a while after that.

Shane Mercer [00:17:07]:

Because of that. Yeah. Because of that incident. As as states sort of move into the regulated space, you're saying that they have to hire an integrity service like like what you created. Yeah. Right. And and at what point, you know, did did you realize, hey, there there's, you know, there's an opportunity here and and there's a big problem here that needs to be fixed and and sort of give give me a little bit of the backstory into how you created US Integrity and and IC three sixty.

Matt Holt [00:17:36]:

Sure. So prior to starting US Integrity, I was a a VP at a company called Canner Gaming. We launched the first regulated mobile sports betting app in The United States. We were the first ones in the state of Nevada to offer continuous markets, which is live in play betting throughout the entire game, not just on time out. And it was a it was an interesting company. Right? It was a roller coaster ride. It got a lot of media attention, good and bad, but it was an awesome experience. I learned a ton, worked for some amazing people.

Matt Holt [00:18:07]:

You know, my boss my boss's boss was Howard Lutnick, who's now, you know, appointed in as a position in the US government. My boss, Mia Mejis, his boss was Howard Lutnick.

Shane Mercer [00:18:17]:

Oh yeah a big position. He's he's making news over here on this side of the border quite a bit.

Matt Holt [00:18:20]:

Yeah. Sure. I'm sure he's making a lot of news. So, you know, it was it was an awesome opportunity, and then I learned so much. And I was, the COO of their sister company as well. Well. I was also the SVP of business development for Canner Gaming, but I was also the chief operating officer of their sister company, CG Analytics, because every, casino or sportsbook in Nevada had to buy odds from a licensed information service provider. So we bought one, and I ran that.

Matt Holt [00:18:50]:

And one of the things we did is we started working with all of the leagues, professional and collegiate, on somewhat I would call rudimentary at the time, game integrity and info sharing. So I got to know all of these leagues really well, made great contacts. You know, the thought was at a time in 02/2012, we did, like, 1,400,000,000.0 in handle at Canter, and the whole state of Nevada did, like, 2.7 because we were the only ones that had a mobile app. And, anyway, everyone quickly developed a mobile app after that, and our market share quickly decreased. But the thought was, hey. If people are running all these bets through bookies and offshore books, some of it might funnel into Nevada where they're trying to hedge it out, and thus you guys might see some of the action. So I was working closely with all the leagues. And then in late twenty seventeen, having developed those relationships, new talking to the leagues that the injunctions were gonna be pulled.

Matt Holt [00:19:49]:

Paspa was gonna be repealed in q two of twenty eighteen. So I left Cantor. I said, man, every and we looked into the first four states that had regs in place. Like, if PASPA gets repealed, what states are ready to go the next day? And there were four. New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Mississippi. And New Jersey and Pennsylvania had regs that operators contract with a licensed integrity monitor. And when we looked, there weren't any. So he said, well, the books are gonna have to work with one.

Matt Holt [00:20:18]:

There aren't any. Let's start a company to fill that regulatory mandate in a really interesting space. And having worked with the leagues, we're actually starting to develop the techniques at the time of how will we go about identifying these instances and then investigating and handing off the right information to law enforcement. And so, fortunately, we started a company where some of the leagues are some of the operators had to work with us right away because we were the licensed integrity monitor and you know.

Shane Mercer [00:20:49]:

You we were the only game in town.

Matt Holt [00:20:51]:

Yeah. And we hope that we provided an awesome service, and we were able you know, in the six years I ran it, we signed almost every major professional and collegiate sports league, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, NASCAR, UFC, SEC, Pac twelve, Big twelve, Big ten. We signed everybody, basically. We signed we all the way down to, like, the World Surfing League. I mean, we signed every league there was to sign in North America and just about every licensed sportsbook operator. And but at what we were still missing and and all of that was amazing. That was the catalyst for the company was okay. Now everybody signed up and said, how do we do more to ensure all these other issues? And that's where it started to get tricky.

Matt Holt [00:21:36]:

Right? Because then, you know, we need more data. Well, people don't wanna give you more data. And, that's where I think the growth of the company sorta stunted. We got really good at integrity. We were the premier, you know, sort of, supplier of those services, but then it sort of becomes where do you take the business from here? How do you grow out the services from here? And I think that's where those things sorta get tricky, and you stop doing the work you love.

Andrew Pace [00:22:02]:

So I gotta ask you. You signed every major North American league, essentially, you know, collegiate level, professional level. Just really quick, was the CFL on the list?

Matt Holt [00:22:13]:

Actually, I don't think so. I I think that we had conversations with them, and we never quite got there. I think that they had a data provider. Because of where they were in Canada, there wasn't the same mandates on usage of, contracts with licensed integrity monitors. And I think that their data provider, who I won't mention that company's name, but everybody could probably figure out who it is, provided some level of free integrity services. Yeah. Right. And they just took that.

Matt Holt [00:22:44]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:22:45]:

So we we know there's a lot of corruption in that league. Unfortunately, not firsthand. I'd love to be like, yeah. We made all this money because we know all this stuff, but we've we've just seen it because we bet it. But, okay, I was curious about that. Now when it comes to the leagues that obviously you you did work with and you did sign, were you seeing it at every level?

Matt Holt [00:23:09]:

Yeah. You know, what's funny is there isn't a particular league that was more prone to integrity issues than others necessarily, except for two. There are two sort of sports that made up 50% of the alerts, tennis and esports. And tennis because it's so one on one in the way betting is structured. You could throw the first point or the third point of set two. So because of the way tennis is structured and it's one v one, it makes for very easy match fixing because you can fit fix little microcosms. The third point of set two, I'm going to throw it. You know? And then no one really knows because, you know, you you win six two, six four, whatever it is.

Matt Holt [00:23:52]:

Right? It they're they're easy fixes, and the betting is available on all those markets pretty readily. And then the other one is esports. And I think it most of it's due to the age. You know, the average age is about 17 years old, and these kids aren't making money, and they throw matches for a ham sandwich or a new skin. And, it it got tricky. Right? And and it wasn't just throwing matches. They would mess with each other's Wi Fi all the time. And if somebody's Wi Fi was a millisecond slower or faster, it meant that they would beat them in these games.

Matt Holt [00:24:26]:

And, there was a lot of manipulation in esports that that made it tricky. But if you take those two and throw them out and say, okay. Now every other sport, college football, college basketball, NBA, NFL, MLB, everybody, I think the cases are about the same. You know, the NFL had a bunch of cases of, prohibited bettor, athletes betting on football. They were football players, and, you know, all those came out publicly. I'm only mentioning public ones. Obviously, the NBA had Jontay Porter and some other ones that are under investigation now. The NCAA had Iowa and Iowa State, Brad Bohannon, the Alabama baseball coach who's basically done now.

Matt Holt [00:25:09]:

He's he pretty much got a lifetime ban, fifteen years, but he'll never coach again as part of that one. They all pretty much when you look at them, you're like, there's not one sport that seems more prone to integrity related issues than another except for tennis and esports. Throwing those two out, the rest of them sorta you know, could be any of them that week. Those two those were pretty problematic.

Andrew Pace [00:25:36]:

Crazy. Makes sense, though.

Shane Mercer [00:25:38]:

I gotta ask about college in particular and college sports because I'm thinking about sort of the way, you know, campus life, you know, sort of plays out. And we're talking about young people here, a lot of sort of, just, you know, big social circles, lots of social events, and they all sort of center around sports. And now in a big way, they not only just center around sports, but they center around betting on sports and betting on their their school teams and that kind of thing. What have you seen in terms of how information is shared between players and their roommates, players and their buddies, players and their girlfriends, and and that kind of thing?

Matt Holt [00:26:18]:

So misuse of insider information, you know, is the most prevalent issue there is in sports betting. Right? It's misuse of insider information, then it's prohibited bettor, athletes betting on their own sports. Even though a lot of times they're not fixing them, they're just betting on them. Those are the two most common, then it's sort of game manipulation, then match fixing. But the issue with the inside information is proving intent. But to give you an example of how fast information moves, you know, we would have the syndicates who wanted to stay friendly with us, call us sometimes, of course, after they made all their bets when they got info. But I had a syndicate call me one time. It was an SEC basketball team, that they the, flight had mechanical issues and was going to show up late.

Matt Holt [00:27:09]:

But they were still gonna show up in time to play the game, but they were going to miss shoot around. Well, the statistics told us that for the three years prior to that, if you missed your shoot around or your stretch warm up story for a football game, those teams were like, o and 19 against the spread, o and 19 against the spread in the first half, and, like, two and seventeen straight up. Like, if you don't make your warm ups, you lose the game. And so I called my guy at the SEC, and and he called the athletic director of this school because now the line had moved six points on this game. And he called me back, like, three minutes later and said, I just talked to the AD. As always, Matt, your information's a % correct. But the AD would love to know how you know because he said the pilot just announced nine minutes ago that the flight had mechanical issues. And somehow, the pilot announces it.

Matt Holt [00:28:02]:

That information got out, got in the hands of professional syndicate bettors who bet it, who called me, who I called the SEC to all of it happened so fast.

Andrew Pace [00:28:14]:

Wow.

Matt Holt [00:28:15]:

But when we looked back on that incident, you know, one of the probable answers to how did it get out was a kid calling his brother saying, hey. I won't be able to meet you at the game early. We're gonna be late and miss shoot arounds. But he's not trying to bet it. He's calling someone saying, hey. I know he's gonna come over and say hi before the game. I won't be able to. We're not gonna get there on time.

Matt Holt [00:28:36]:

We're not gonna have our warm ups. We're not gonna have shoot around. So, hey, I'll see you later after. The plane has mechanical issues. And now maybe the brother tells somebody, there's a really good example of this. When Tom Brady retired with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and then came back that final year, There were some groups that were going into the Nevada sportsbooks betting between a thousand and $20,000 at a time, whatever the books would take, at odds of 60 to to 90 to one for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to win the Super Bowl. And the books called me after and said, you know, something's up with Brady because people are betting Tampa Bay to win the Super Bowl like they got either Brady or the next great quarterback. And two days later, Brady announces he's coming back.

Matt Holt [00:29:24]:

And now the books are all upset. They're like, you have to do something about this because we're not gonna all lose millions of dollars because Brady you know, he told a bunch of people, and they came and hammered us. But when we looked at the inner circle of just who would know that Tom Brady's coming back, well, the GM of the team, the head coach of the team, you know, at least half a dozen people on the team itself than Brady, his agent, his family. There was, like, 12 people that just, like, out of necessity had to know. And then when you got into their immediate family circles, it got to, like, 50 really quick. So trying to prove intent with any of that, which one of the 50 leaked it for betting? Maybe none.

Andrew Pace [00:30:07]:

Maybe none. Yeah.

Matt Holt [00:30:09]:

Maybe the agent was just telling some people to get ready for marketing deals and ad deals, and and then someone found out early and said, wow. There's still 90 to one. I'm gonna go throw $20 on and, you know, and see what happens. And so, you know, it's crazy, really.

Andrew Pace [00:30:26]:

It is crazy.

Shane Mercer [00:30:27]:

It it's wild to think, especially in, you know, that that, example you gave of of the basketball team that that, you know, didn't make it nine minutes from the time that the that the pilot announces it to you getting the phone call at at you know, from from the syndicate, which is a whole sort of thing in and of itself. But it's like, you know, that that brother had to tell somebody had to tell somebody, had to make its way to the betting syndicate to get to you all in nine minutes is just wild to think. Also, why is the betting syndicate calling you?

Andrew Pace [00:30:59]:

Oh, that's for good reason, Shane.

Shane Mercer [00:31:01]:

Are are they calling are they calling to verify? Are they calling to confirm or deny? What what are they and and how does that relationship work? Give me a sort of an inside look at

Matt Holt [00:31:11]:

I remember one day. I called one of the biggest betting syndicates in the world. I was able through my contacts to get a hold of the individual who has sort of ran it. And I called them and I said, every time you guys make a bet, the line moves so much that a lot of these bets could be deemed as suspicious. And do you want me or my team or other, integrity providers investigating every bet you make? Or if we open up the lines of communication and you send them to me and I can go, oh, the the line moves so much in this game because this syndicate hit it early. I said I can eliminate some false positives, not be digging into you all as much, and it sorta adds some credibility to what you all are doing. You say you're just pro bettors. You're not doing anything illegal.

Matt Holt [00:32:01]:

You know, let's open up the lines of communication. And so I think that there was some good faith on both sides that, you know, I don't think any of those betting syndicates do everything a % legal. Right? They a lot of them have beards and set up beards through accounts and because they get limited, and they can only bet so much themselves. And, of course, that's not legal. But on the same side, if you're also helping us and sharing information and being pretty transparent, look, you didn't see any syndicates getting busted. Right? But if they were jerks about it, naturally, because of the influence they had on betting markets, a lot of the bets they made would have ended up being investigated, and these people will be getting calls constantly. Why are you betting this, and were you involved in this? So I think it was mutually beneficial.

Andrew Pace [00:32:50]:

Well, I think also too from the standpoint of being the group that got the information that got down and then shutting that opportunity down to the rest of the world nine minutes later gives them a higher probability of any payout in question. You know, if the sportsbooks now have a, you know, 10 plus million dollar liability or maybe hundred plus million dollar liability, I don't know how big these numbers get. You know, they cut that off, and they're the ones that get the, you know, they're the ones that get to eat. Right?

Matt Holt [00:33:26]:

Yeah. To your point, there's a less chance of that game being flagged for suspicious activity and the payouts being held up.

Andrew Pace [00:33:33]:

Right. Right. That is bizarre. And the thing is is I think to to the Tom Brady story and and the basketball story in both cases, it's really obvious to me that there is, without question, the ability to say that nothing malicious happened. I'm not saying nothing malicious happened, but it's really easy to to go guys like, you know, Tom Brady's agent has a son, and he told his buddy at high school. And, you know, before you know it, like right? Like, that and that makes a lot of sense. And the other side of it, of course, is that, yeah, there could there could have been some, hey, guys. Hit this way, you still can't kinda thing.

Andrew Pace [00:34:13]:

You know?

Matt Holt [00:34:13]:

By the way, they didn't win the Super Bowl.

Andrew Pace [00:34:16]:

Oh, they went some, like, they went, like, seven and nine that season.

Matt Holt [00:34:18]:

That's right. I mean, they weren't even good.

Andrew Pace [00:34:21]:

Yeah. They won the division and lost their first playoff game. But yeah. That yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, separately of that, if if you if you got 90 to one on them to win the Super Bowl before before the season started, you could've extracted some value out of that by, selling your ticket, cashing out, you know, hedging, whatever. So, yeah. Crazy stuff.

Shane Mercer [00:34:40]:

Matt, where would you say some of the biggest, cracks still exist? And and, I guess, what's being done out there to kind of to to fill them in or or sort of, you know, work on them?

Matt Holt [00:34:51]:

Number one is the lack of data sharing. Again, if you if there was a one source, an independent source, think of the SEC. You know? If you're Charles Schwab, you don't get to file the trades you want to. You have to file every trade with the SEC so that they can independently verify nothing suspicious is going on. But in the in North America, it's not like that. Many of the states don't have data mandate. Some of the books don't share at all. Some of them share sometimes, and so you're never getting the whole picture.

Matt Holt [00:35:23]:

And, again, like, if we knew that the same bettor hey. Shane just opened up 23 new accounts today. Each one of them, he put 10,000 in. And in each case, he put all 10,000 in the first set of a tennis match. Boy, we should take a look at that. Like, what's Shane doing?

Andrew Pace [00:35:42]:

You know what's crazy about that, though, is I think about myself getting information like that and how I would handle it. And I'm like, jeez. Like, make it more obvious. You know what I mean? Like, that's nuts.

Matt Holt [00:35:54]:

But what's crazy is each book individually, all they know is one guy named Shane signed up for an account. But, again, if all the data was collected, unified, we'd know. Shane signed up for 23 accounts today, funded all of them for $10, and bet the entire balance on the second set or second point of the first set of a tennis match, we go, boy, that's weird. We really gotta talk to Shane.

Shane Mercer [00:36:20]:

I don't know if I like this idea of data sharing.

Andrew Pace [00:36:23]:

Neither do I. But at the same time so its context is king. Right? So, Matt, I look at it and I go, I don't like the idea of athletes or teams or organizations in any capacity rigging sports. In fact, especially when you get away from the regulated market and you get into the some of the gray market sportsbooks, they'll use any excuse they can to essentially have a winning player fall on a sword that wasn't even associated with their account where they go, oh, he did this, so we're not paying him. Right? So the less that this stuff exists in sports, in my opinion, now some of these syndicates obviously might disagree with me, the better. I don't want I don't wanna think about a game having some sort of corrupt element associated with it. I want things to be fair, and both sides are playing to win the game, period. Right? Like, it's a pretty simple concept.

Andrew Pace [00:37:20]:

But when you start talking about sharing data in sportsbooks, we look at what else is gonna be shared. In this example of Shane opening 20 accounts, well, what if he did open 20 accounts because he started his journey as a sports bettor, and he's doing it in a way to potentially use some of that bonus money to turn it into cash, play some of the odds against each other, you know, learn to actually profit from sports betting where the 20 accounts all get clipped together at once because of this data sharing where nothing malicious, occurred. And that's where, in my opinion, at least, you know, the SEC concept is brilliant provided that it is only for that one purpose that you just mentioned because

Matt Holt [00:38:07]:

Correct.

Andrew Pace [00:38:07]:

Outside of that purpose as a player, it's terrifying.

Matt Holt [00:38:10]:

And that the data not be shared back to all of the sportsbooks unless it's for an integrity related issue.

Andrew Pace [00:38:17]:

Right. Right.

Shane Mercer [00:38:19]:

Right.

Andrew Pace [00:38:19]:

So so can that exist?

Matt Holt [00:38:22]:

I don't know. But I think if if we really truly want to identify, let's just say, even half of these instances that are happening, because I feel at fifteen, twenty alerts a month, we were catching, like, five to ten percent.

Andrew Pace [00:38:36]:

Wow.

Matt Holt [00:38:38]:

And so and because we just didn't have enough data and information.

Andrew Pace [00:38:43]:

So can you talk about the ninety percent that slips under the crack? Like, why wouldn't you catch one of those ninety percent? Like, what are some of the reasons? Because you didn't have the data and information. Obvious one. Yeah. But you gave some obvious ones. Right? So when you say you don't have the data and information, what is it that's missing? What kind of data is missing?

Matt Holt [00:39:00]:

New account sign ups, the actual betting data. Again, let's just use a a standard bet. So something abnormal like a a UFC fight on an undercard. If on in that you have the first round knockout prop. If we saw from the sportsbooks that 35 different sportsbooks got hit, whether it's the same accounts or not, with 4 to 6 figure bets on this guy to win by first round knockout who's never had a knockout. If nothing else, we'd have a human being watch the fight and investigate a little further. So at least somebody's looking to see, does this look right? Does it feel right? But right now, we don't get it. That one UFC one, it got so egregious that the books actually reported it.

Andrew Pace [00:39:47]:

Right.

Matt Holt [00:39:48]:

The books are deincentivized to report. If they report too many incidents, oh, then in like in Ontario, UFC gets banned for a while until they made some policy adjustments. And, that happened with ITF tennis in some jurisdictions. So there were so many alerts on ITF tennis. Some jurisdictions contemplated banning it, and then, coincidentally, we stopped getting ITF alerts from them. Wow. We just stopped. It's like, look.

Matt Holt [00:40:15]:

We were averaging one every third day on ITF. Now we went six months without one. Come on.

Andrew Pace [00:40:21]:

Isn't that crazy? So you know what that says to me? Is if you're a sportsbook and this is your business and this is your lifeblood, it's like we wanna report this to get rid of it, obviously. But if that comes at the expense of allowing our business to operate the way it currently is, then we don't wanna do it anymore, which almost makes me go, well, then this is just a part of the betting ecosystem, and we just have to accept it.

Matt Holt [00:40:47]:

It sort of is, but I do think if you had that independent verification source like the SEC, we could actually get rid of enough and to your point, put restrictions and guidelines on what the data can be used for. This will only be used to identify abnormal, suspicious, nefarious, or illicit sports betting activity and nothing else, then we could prevent a lot of this because we all want fair sports. Otherwise, it becomes wrestling. And then, sure, let's all throw $20 because we don't know who's gonna win the wrestling match even though the wrestlers do and the promoters do and whatever. But you can't bet real money on wrestling because the outcome's predetermined. And so we need sports to be fair and the outcome to be in question. But you're right. Like, there's a balance between all of it, and the sportsbooks themselves are deincentivized to report.

Matt Holt [00:41:48]:

You know, they're incentivized to report sometimes, and then you get into a situation where, hey. Maybe the sportsbooks feel like they should report this one because they're gonna eat substantial losses on it. But maybe we didn't get hit as hard on this one, so we just don't report it because we don't wanna push the envelope too far. And or, hey. We had three of these this month. Let's not report this one. We'll just eat this one because it's good for business. We don't want this betting market to get banned.

Matt Holt [00:42:17]:

At the end of the day, either way, because there's so many conflicts of interest in there, they shouldn't be deciding. It should be some independent source similar to the SEC whose only job is to analyze data and identify abnormalities.

Shane Mercer [00:42:33]:

Yeah. The the selective reporting there is definitely a concern. You know, you can't you can't pick and choose when you when you when you're gonna report.

Andrew Pace [00:42:40]:

But, Shane, think about it from this standpoint. You just had this player, you know, that that had this pattern on their account. You chose not to report it, but, of course, you can then limit that player so they can no longer play with you anymore. Yeah. Whereas going back to the the point Matt has about the data sharing, you go, okay. What if the sportsbooks no longer have that tool at their disposal, which obviously in Massachusetts right now is being investigated? So I can't limit you anymore. I have to report it, and the whole the whole thing turns where this is a really positive thing for winning players. Because the people that are doing things maliciously, let's call it cheating with this insider throwing fixing matches, whatever the case.

Andrew Pace [00:43:29]:

Right?

Shane Mercer [00:43:29]:

Past Post. Whatever it might be.

Andrew Pace [00:43:31]:

They they have no ability to to continue to do that anymore because they've been investigated and caught, And then legitimate winning players actually can keep winning because their accounts weren't limited. And then you have, like obviously, we're creating this hypothetical theoretical world that, the three of us may agree will never exist. Right? Right? But then you go, hey. The we're onto something here. You know?

Matt Holt [00:43:57]:

It's interesting. And there's a lot of ways to skin the cat here. But when you asked me right at the very beginning of the show, where do I think we're at? When I said we're at halfway, it's because we haven't really got there fully yet.

Andrew Pace [00:44:10]:

Yeah. It's it's wildly interesting. And we we brought up the CFL already, but, like, the fact that they're not on the list is, like, really obvious to us because we've seen we've seen stuff that would be similar to that kick example you gave at the start of you being on with us. We we've seen it real time where we're like, wait. What just happened? And it's it's almost like a rule was made up on the spot.

Shane Mercer [00:44:33]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Holt [00:44:35]:

Yeah. There's certainly lots of examples we could go through and some of them you know, I used to say we we catch America's dumbest criminals because some of them were were pretty bad. And the the attempts that they made were pretty bad.

Andrew Pace [00:44:48]:

Right. And then you get poor Calvin Ridley in the mix of all this type of discussion. The guy just made a stupid parlay on his own team to win. You know?

Matt Holt [00:44:53]:

That's prohibited bettor. He wasn't trying to fix that. I know. And it's like bored. He was injured. He threw a few What's all of us would be $5 parlays, and, you know, he just happened to have football and his own team in some of those parlays.

Andrew Pace [00:45:10]:

But it was his team to win, and he lost the bet.

Shane Mercer [00:45:12]:

Yeah.

Matt Holt [00:45:13]:

Yeah. And he wasn't involved in the game. He was hurt at the time.

Shane Mercer [00:45:16]:

Yep.

Matt Holt [00:45:18]:

Yep. Poor guy.

Shane Mercer [00:45:19]:

Matt, what's what's up next for you? You're no longer with, US Integrity IC three sixty, but but you're looking to, you're you're still sort of looking to launch something.

Matt Holt [00:45:29]:

Yeah. You know what's great about and I and I what's interesting is I had never been unemployed for more than an hour in my professional career. Since the day I graduated college, I've spent every second of my post collegiate career in regulated sports betting And finally getting to step back, selling my shares, exiting the company, I could say, what are, like, the problem areas and need areas in college sports, pro sports, gaming? And how could we build something that's both sustainable and scalable to grow. And I I think there's some exciting new ventures out there. And one of the big things I think is really interesting is that no one yet is taking all the different datasets and using it for nongambling reasons, like concessions data and commercialization data and attendance data and combining it with sports betting data. Like, there's things that are obvious when we start pulling in simple datasets. Like, guess what? If when Alabama is a 30 plus point favorite compared to a seven or less point favorite, they sell less hot dogs, they sell less beers, it's an in a less engaged audience, People show up later and go home earlier when their team's a 30 favorite. How can we help colleges put together better schedules that bring more engaged and exciting fans to the stadiums, but still allow for the managing of that schedule from a success rate enough to the point where Alabama is still gonna make the CFP three out of five years and still gonna win enough games to keep the fan base happy, but yet can make an extra 10 or $20,000,000 a gain in those huge college stadiums by bringing in a more engaged fan who get theirs who gets there earlier, pays more for tickets, stays later, buys an extra hot dog, an extra beer, a sweatshirt, and something for the kids on the way out because they're excited about the game instead of it's 51 to nothing by halftime.

Shane Mercer [00:47:32]:

Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Yeah. That that'd be really, you know, just creating a more engaged kind of experience for everybody.

Matt Holt [00:47:39]:

Yeah. So that's one of the things we're working on now is how do we ensure that we have all the right data, put it together in a product that's really useful for professional and collegiate sports leagues. And, we're hoping to launch something by football season. And we're very excited about it.

Shane Mercer [00:47:56]:

Awesome, man. So cool. So cool. Well, good luck with that, and, thanks so much for coming on the show. Matt,

Matt Holt [00:48:01]:

Paul guys. Thanks for having me. Reach out anytime.

Shane Mercer [00:48:04]:

Alright. Well, we'll do. Take care. Alright. That was Matt Holt. A fascinating conversation there, Pace. I mean, I feel like I I learned quite a bit about how information flows and, you know, flows from average Joes or or, you know, players themselves to betting syndicates to the sportsbooks. You know, really sort of interesting ecosystem there of of information sharing.

Andrew Pace [00:48:32]:

Big time. And, yeah, I definitely learned at bet bet bash last year that there's a lot of people that cheat to win. You know? And part of me just wishes none of this stuff existed because, I don't like being lumped in and associated as a winning player as, you you know, remember we talk about the Massachusetts thing and, like, they basically said, like, the people that win cheat. Yep. You know? Shane, you know firsthand a lot of what we do. 99.9% of what we do is has not like, we're just playing the odds that we're we're being given in real time, and it isn't like we're, you know, gaining some sort of statistical advantage based on information that isn't available to everybody, whereas a lot of this stuff is information that is not available to everybody. Right? Or we have information that isn't available to everyone, but it's because we have compounded it from what is available to everyone. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:49:22]:

Yeah. We've put in the work to figure out the data. You know?

Andrew Pace [00:49:27]:

Yeah. That kind of Yeah. Exactly. So I wish some of that stuff didn't exist. I I I I it was fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So

Shane Mercer [00:49:34]:

Yeah. Really interesting. Would be, interesting to see what he's up to next and and how that works out. We'd love to have him back on the show as that kinda sort of moves forward as well because that sounds like, some some fascinating work that that he's planning to take on. Okay. Let's move forward. The big promise, the pinnacle contest giveaway, a thousand USD going into a lucky contestant's account. We've been doing this for the past three months.

Shane Mercer [00:49:59]:

All you have to do is make a $10 wager, send it into us, and you would have been entered for this leg of the contest. There will be more throughout the year. We've got three more after this one for a total of four. Pace, you ready to do this?

Andrew Pace [00:50:14]:

Yeah. And I will say there's 30 entrants, so you have a really good probability of winning. So if you're thinking, oh, I I didn't enter. Make sure you enter for the next one because, yeah, it's a a great, great possibility of winning. Anyways, I have assigned everyone a random number. And if you've ever done a livestream giveaway with me, I'm doing the Excel rand between and hitting enter, and it is number 15. I'm gonna say your Discord handle on the show. It is the winner is vig sixteen.

Andrew Pace [00:50:46]:

Congratulations. So shoot, shoot myself or and or Rodge a DM to claim your prize on Discord, huge congratulations. And if it is not claimed, by, I would say, recording next week, which will be Monday for us, Shane, then I think it's gonna go into the next quarter, and the next quarter would be even bigger. So, you have to have listened to the show to have claimed it or had someone message you saying, hey. You won so that you know to claim it. Yeah. But, anyways, congrats to, VIG sixteen, our guy, Nick, on on the w, and, I hope you claim.

Shane Mercer [00:51:24]:

Alright. VIG16. Congratulations. Look at that. A thousand USD coming your way. Hopefully, you claim it. It doesn't get rolled over into the next one, but if it does, hey. $2,000 for for the next next contest there.

Shane Mercer [00:51:35]:

And only 30 of you entered. Look at that. I mean, come on, guys. This is a free thousand dollars. You gotta you gotta enter you gotta enter to win. And if only 30 people are gonna do it, I mean, why not you? You've gotta you know, that's a that's a pretty good shot at winning. So, for for the next leg of the contest, guys, get get those entries in. Pace same thing moving forward.

Shane Mercer [00:51:55]:

$10 bet on Pinnacle, and that's all it takes.

Andrew Pace [00:51:57]:

Yep. Yep. And we're moving into a really exciting time of the year here, guys. We're into the final seven, eight ish games of the NHL, similar for the NBA, and then, we it's kind of the push to the playoffs. And what I love about the push to the playoffs from a betting standpoint is motivations tend to be clear, and that could be teams like the 70 that we know that really might not be winning too much basketball. That could be teams, like the Vancouver Canucks that are desperate beyond reason to basically win every remaining last game they have to try to slide into the playoffs. That could be teams like the Washington Capitals that are extremely comfortable sitting at the top of of their division. There's different ways, you know, put put the, put the funder on that list as well.

Andrew Pace [00:52:44]:

There's different ways teams play in different scenarios, and, they tend to be, quite profitable. And, of course, that obviously, translates really nicely into the playoffs themselves where the way teams play in in a series where elimination of their season or, you know, championships on the line is is a lot different than, say, you know, December 28 in the NBA or in the NHL. So, really exciting time of year. Low volume, high ROI, and very much looking forward to it. So let's buckle up.

Shane Mercer [00:53:18]:

Yeah. Awesome time of the year as we as we get into the playoffs for for NHL and, and NBA. These are some of the times of the year where I've done my best. But, Pace, I I I gotta say, baseball is back.

Andrew Pace [00:53:33]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:53:34]:

Five days of of baseball in March, regular season play in March, and the ROI on baseball is going to be way up there for the month March when compared to the other sports.

Andrew Pace [00:53:49]:

Yeah. Yeah. It was a great great start to the season. It's a long season.

Shane Mercer [00:53:54]:

It is a very long season. Yeah. It's a very long season. Let's let's not, you know, get get too crazy with it just yet, but, a really, really solid start for the community with, with with MFP.

Andrew Pace [00:54:04]:

Big time.

Shane Mercer [00:54:04]:

Yep. Alright, Pace. Well, to you, to everybody out there, sports bettors listening around the world till next week. Keep beating those books. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below.

Shane Mercer [00:54:24]:

And if you wanna join we You know what's, use promo code BEHINDTHELINES.