Episode 48

Shane Mercer [00:00:00]:

I I love this idea of of being able to bet against someone else's parlay. You know? Like, that just sounds like gold to me. It

Justin Deutsch [00:00:08]:

sounds like free money.

Shane Mercer [00:00:22]:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the The only podcast purifying the sports betting industry. How do we do that? Well, we give you the tools, the knowledge, and all of the tactics that you need to thrive while teaching you the pitfalls of the sportsbooks and what they're trying to do to take your money. I'm your host, Shane Mercer, that guy over there, Andrew Pace, founder and CEO of inplayLIVE. And we've got an amazing show for you today. Really excited for it. We are going to hear from the CEO of Stacks, a sports betting exchange. So that's coming at you in a few moments. But first, remember to like, download, subscribe, follow us on all the socials @inplaylive.

Shane Mercer [00:01:03]:

And if you wanna see what inplayLIVE is all about on the inside, we've got a promo code for you that is 'BEHINDTHELINES', all caps. So that will get you the very best deal on the inplayLIVE membership, and you can, you know, learn more about those tools, and the the strategies that we use to succeed in this space. Alright. Andrew Pace, you are joining us from beautiful Hawaii this morning. Looks gorgeous. I can see the reflection in the mirror behind you there. Just give us a sense at why you're in Hawaii. This is a regular trip for you.

Andrew Pace [00:01:37]:

Yeah. It's become a bit of a regular trip. Obviously, fortunate with some of the betting profits I've, earned, over the the last sort of decade or more. And, once I kinda hit a certain level, I decided to, this isn't exactly giving back, but give back to my family, for supporting me, in the journey that, you know, I have as a sports value analyst. So, take them take them out to Hawaii. My mom and dad aren't here yet, but they'll be they'll be joining me this week. And, yeah, just just get away and, just unplug, and Hawaii is just such an incredible place. It's truly just magical, and, it really allows you to disconnect from some of the the challenging winters in Canada.

Andrew Pace [00:02:24]:

So, like, separately of disconnecting from sports is the, the disconnecting from the weather itself. So I'm I live in Vancouver. A lot of people assume Vancouver just gets all this snow. It's more like Seattle. We just get a lot of rain, but you you come over to Hawaii, and I'm looking out off my balcony right now. And just in the time that you asked me this question, I think I've seen about 6 different whales jump out of the ocean in front of me. So it's it's whale season here and all the humpbacks from, like, literally around the world. The moms come to give birth here.

Andrew Pace [00:02:59]:

So they they they just frolic around in front of the the tourists all on the beach. And, yeah, it's it's a pretty pretty special place and a a a great, a great display, overall of some of the benefits of getting to do this because it's the NHL all star break. So, during the NHL all star break, I personally am very focused on hockey, so I get a a a little bit of a an unplug from that, and and it gives me the opportunity to get away.

Shane Mercer [00:03:28]:

The other break taking place right now is the 2 week break between championship weekend and the Super Bowl, NFL, of course. We just came out of championship weekend. Give me a sense of of what you think about the Super Bowl matchup. Kansas City Chiefs, San Francisco 40 niners. The line initially opened at minus 2a half in favor of the 40 niners, and I think it's moved since then. I think it might be 1a half now. I think it could be a pick them by the time game day rolls around.

Andrew Pace [00:03:58]:

Yeah. I think, in general, most Super Bowls should be a pick them. I I love getting a team as an underdog. The Chiefs were underdogs last year, and not only were they underdogs, they're down 10 at half. So, last year's Super Bowl was actually, I think the single best betting game, not betting day, betting game I've ever had. I think I profited over $55,000 going 12 for 12 on last year's Super Bowl. And, my my dad, it's funny. He's always like, Super Bowl rolls around, and that's when, you know, it really comes up in the media.

Andrew Pace [00:04:36]:

Really good to touch on a few things associated with some traps and things like that in this episode, with with the Super Bowl. But, yeah, it it's exploding in the media, and, you know, my dad goes, you know, who's gonna win the Super Bowl? I'm like, dad, you still really don't get it, do you? But, I said to him last year, and I I say this to everyone each year, the Super Bowl is just 1 game. Chances are it's not going to be a special game to bet on, just because of you know, it the stars kinda have to align, a typical Sunday morning where you have, you know, potentially 8 or 9 games on. You can usually cherry pick a couple of those games that are fitting what it is that you're sort of trying to wager on. And and the reverse of that that people do is they try to, fit the strategy to the game when there's only 1 game on. So with the Super Bowl just being this 1 game, it's it's really nothing to get excited about from a betting perspective even though we're gonna be inundated and bombarded, with, you know, what we should bet from the Gatorade bath to the color of outfits to, of course, the the game itself. So, yeah, I think it's this time of year, number 1, like I said, you know, had a great Super Bowl last year. I certainly don't expect that this year.

Andrew Pace [00:05:55]:

Number 2, if if you've never bet before, it's almost when Super Bowl comes around, you feel like you're supposed to. We like to swim against the tide. You know, if you wanna place a recreational entertainment bet on the game, by all means, go do it. But the whole infrastructure and landscape of the betting industry is just trying to to bring people in and and to get as much action on this game as they possibly can. And because it's the biggest handle of any single event that anyone, that any sportsbook, offers for the whole year, they get a lot of balanced action. So they they get money on both sides of most of their wagers, leading to profit for them and not necessarily the players. So, always remember that. Put your thinking cap on this time of year, and and, I'm not saying don't do any of it.

Andrew Pace [00:06:45]:

I'm gonna do it. Just just make sure you you enter the arena with that knowledge.

Shane Mercer [00:06:50]:

Yeah. I'll you know, you you touched on some really great points there. 1, you know, if if you do you know, if you are part of inplayLIVE, that means you know the strategies already that we use in NFL football. And if you're not a part of inplayLIVE, then you don't know the strategy. So this might be more for people in the community. But that whole idea of not forcing the strategy onto the game, I think, you know, can be, can be difficult for people at times. Right? Because it is the only game on. These are the strategies you know that have been successful for the past season, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it that they're gonna fit into this Super Bowl game.

Andrew Pace [00:07:24]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Shane Mercer [00:07:26]:

And and I guess the other the other one that you talked about there is is this whole notion that you were going to be bombarded to bet. And I guess this is for all the recreational bettors out there, the people who, you know, only bet occasionally or, you know, aren't aren't doing it day in, day out the way the way that you and I are, and and many members of the community are. But these are people who are going to sort of of be like, oh, you know, I should I should put something down on this game because I'm gonna be sitting there watching it with all my friends. And I suppose, you know, that there's nothing wrong with that, but, I guess, you know, how do you do that responsibly? How you know, what what message, you know, do you wanna put out there for the people? As they sort of go to place their action, what kind of traps might the books be looking to set for them?

Andrew Pace [00:08:07]:

Exactly. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:08:11]:

Okay. Well, we've got a lot more coming up, regarding, the Super Bowl because we will do a full episode on the Super Bowl next week. Really looking forward to that and and chatting with some of the other, pros at inplayLIVE and sort of getting their approaches to to the Super Bowl and even kinda looking back on the season as a whole because I think for a lot of us who sort of built our, you know, our our lives kind of around NFL season, especially I'm also thinking about all the fantasy players out there as well. You know, the Super Bowl can actually be kind of a sad event. Right? It's it's it's the end of the season. It's the longest amount of time we have before the next game. You know? It it's it's, you know, it's it's kind of like marking the end of of, you know, this time of the year that we've all enjoyed so much. So, you know, it'll be nice to kind of look back on things with with some of the other pros at PlayLive to kinda get a sense of how the season went and what they're gonna sort of be looking to do next season and kind of, you know, rejigging the tools a little bit and that kind of thing.

Shane Mercer [00:09:08]:

So, you can expect all of that next week. Really looking forward to that. But on today's show, we've got, as I mentioned, the CEO of Stacks, which is an exchange in Ontario, the very 1st betting exchange in Ontario, and Justin Deutsch is the CEO. I had the pleasure of chatting with him. Pace, you weren't able to join for this conversation because, of course, you were en route to Hawaii, but, still a a very interesting conversation. And so why don't we play that for you now? Here's Justin Deutsch, CEO of Stacks. Justin Deutsch, CEO of Stacks, Thanks for coming on behind the lines. Really happy to have you here.

Shane Mercer [00:09:49]:

How are you?

Justin Deutsch [00:09:49]:

Thanks for having me, Shane. Doing well. How about yourself?

Shane Mercer [00:09:51]:

So, right off the top here, Stacks, we were talking just before we the interview started here. It's actually STX dot app when you're looking for it. I've been telling everybody we're having the CEO of STX come on, and, clearly, that's not the case. It is Stacks. Stacks is the brand. So talk to me a little bit about Stacks. It's an exchange. It's the 1st betting exchange in the province of Ontario, a a fully regulated market.

Shane Mercer [00:10:18]:

So give our audience a sense of of how an exchange works. It's very different than a typical sports betting site. Right?

Justin Deutsch [00:10:25]:

Sure. So the biggest difference is that we give you as the player the ability to go in and essentially ask for or set your own line. So think of it as if you were betting, you know, a friend at a bar and there wasn't per se a bookie in the bar, you would say, hey. We're watching the Chiefs Ravens game. You know, I think they're gonna win by more than a field goal, and you go in and say, alright. But I you know, I'll risk my $55 to your $45 on that bet. And so that's ultimately the biggest difference between Exchange and Sportsbook is instead of betting against 1 party being the bookie who has essentially all control over what goes on, we are mediating that and and putting 2 peers together to be able to bet against each other.

Shane Mercer [00:11:06]:

So let me get this right then. I go on and I set my own line. So, you know, I've downloaded, a Stack. So I've got the app here on my phone. Right? I'm I'm fully logged in here, and I'm glad you brought up, you know, the the the NFL game, because why don't we go and have a look here, at the Super Bowl? So if I go to markets, you know, I can go to NFL, Super Bowl. Now now here's kind of what I'm looking at. Right? So explain this to me. If I wanna get on one side because I've got a side that says bid.

Shane Mercer [00:11:37]:

I've got a side that says offer. What's the difference there, and how do I know what I'm taking? I've got 40 niners as one market, 40 niners as chiefs. Right? I'm just gonna sort of hold that up. But just kind of explain how I would go about it if, say, I wanted to bet on the 40 niners.

Justin Deutsch [00:11:55]:

So let's say you wanna bet on the niners. So you would go into the 40 niners market, and and this view will show you more options. So now there's only 2 teams left in the Super Bowl, but say 3 weeks ago, you would've had 20 options in there. And so that view is more to see, you know, the landscape of the NFL right now and the odds of every team, but to actually bet on yes or no on a given team, you would go in and click in their market. So in this case, I would have you click into the San Francisco 40 niners market, and you would see 2 sides of that market, 1 being a bid and 1 being an offer. All of our markets are binary options where it either settles into $100 if the outcome is yes or $0 if the outcome is no. And so you'd be buying and selling within the lifetime of that market. As if you think it's going to happen, you'd be buying.

Justin Deutsch [00:12:39]:

And if you don't think it's gonna happen, you would be selling.

Shane Mercer [00:12:43]:

Oh, okay. So if I think the 40 niners are going to lose, meaning I think the Chiefs are going to win, I have 2 ways to go about betting it.

Justin Deutsch [00:12:52]:

You now have 2 ways.

Shane Mercer [00:12:53]:

You could buy the 49ers winning, or I could bid on the Chiefs losing if I I said that correctly. But I have 2 ways to bid.

Justin Deutsch [00:13:04]:

You would either bid on the 40 niners to win, or you would put in an offer on the Chiefs, which would mean you think that they're going to lose.

Shane Mercer [00:13:13]:

Right. Okay. So you so you can bet. That's interesting in that you have the sort of 2 ways to make essentially the same bet.

Justin Deutsch [00:13:20]:

Yeah. And and that's not common. You happen to pick a circumstance where that is the case. But if you go look, for example, at an NBA game tonight, which may be a little easier, you would see like, I'm looking at Clippers Cleveland, and you would just go in and you would see Cleveland plus 2a half. And that market is is saying you're betting if you're buying that, you're either you were betting on Cleveland plus 2a half. And if you're selling that, you're saying Cleveland won't cover 2a half, which is the equivalent of betting the Clippers minus 2a half.

Shane Mercer [00:13:51]:

So I could so if I if I wanna go Clippers minus 2a half, then I'm clicking the offer on the Cleveland plus 2a half side there.

Justin Deutsch [00:13:59]:

Exactly. So you would be selling to someone else who is trying to buy the the Cavs plus the 2a half.

Shane Mercer [00:14:07]:

Now I see the quantity on these then. So when I I'm and will you keep we'll stay with this NBA market here with the Cleveland side, of plus 2a half. So I see quantity 5 for the bid side, and I see quantity 11 for the offer side. Does that mean that we've got 11 people who have essentially, you know, taken the minus two and a half, and we've got 5 people who've taken the plus two and a half? Am I am I understanding that correctly?

Justin Deutsch [00:14:35]:

It it's not people. It's actually contracts. And this comes sort of from, like, the traditional financial landscape. It would be equivalent to buying 10 shares of Apple. The number you don't necessarily know that that's coming from 1 counterparty. That's just what's available at the best price at that given time in the order book. And so each of those is a contract. It may all be from the same person.

Justin Deutsch [00:14:58]:

It may be from 11 different people. It shouldn't matter to you as the bettor though. You want to be able to know how much you can bet at a certain line at a certain time, Or if you went to a traditional sports book, you put in your bet and then you have to wait for them to look at it and then tell you, no. No. No. We're not gonna take your $800 bet. Since you're a sharp bettor, we're only gonna take $5.59 of it. We show you ahead of time how much is available in terms of liquidity at different prices in the order book.

Shane Mercer [00:15:28]:

Right. Okay. Got gotcha there. Okay. So it's not necessarily the number of people. It's the number of of, contracts available. What if what if the number is really low? Like, what if, you know, on the on the one side there, there's only 5? What and and give me a sense too. You'd say each one is $100.

Shane Mercer [00:15:47]:

Does that mean each contract is $100?

Justin Deutsch [00:15:50]:

Each contract settles into either 0 or $100. And so let's take, for example, 1 contract that is a coin flip 50 a true 50.50. So I buy it for $50, you sell it for $50, that would be 1 contract where the winner takes home the full $100. And then if you if you look at a you know, this market now has 3 at the best offer, it would be $300 would go to the winner of that bet. And how much you're risking is based on the price that it trades at.

Shane Mercer [00:16:20]:

Gotcha. Okay. And I can't bet then more than what's available, or I can't wager more than the contracts available.

Justin Deutsch [00:16:27]:

So you there's 2 modes that you can look at, simple mode and pro mode. In simple mode, you can see just the best available price. So one line in the order book, this is where you could bet either team for, and this is the amount. In the pro mode, we actually show you the depth of the order book saying, okay. I might be able to only bet $50 at this best price, but I can actually bet $2,000 if I'm willing to take, you know, a cent or two worse than that. Then the 3rd option is if you wanna bet more than what's available throughout the order book, you can always go in and put in an order, a limit order saying, hey, guys. I'm sitting here, and I want, you know, $10,000 bet on Cleveland plus 2a half for you know, at even money. And you put that in, and then everyone else in the ecosystem can come in and take bits and chunks out of that.

Justin Deutsch [00:17:12]:

Say I want you know, someone else wants a100. The next guy wants 500. The next guy wants 800, and then it adds up. And eventually, the more people and liquidity we get on the platform, the more likely you get your full bet in at the price that you want rather than needing to go to a sportsbook and say, hey. I want this amount and then tell you, no. We can't do that for you, and you don't really have a secondary option to go to.

Shane Mercer [00:17:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. Try to get $10 in on some markets. That that some of the sportsbooks can be very difficult depending on on what you're looking at betting and where. Yeah. Okay. So I think I got a better understanding of how it works. How does Stacks make a profit here then? You know? Because, essentially, I'm I'm now betting against another customer.

Shane Mercer [00:17:54]:

Right?

Justin Deutsch [00:17:55]:

Right. So so we're rolling out actually next month, a loyalty program, which will, show you sort of the commission tier you would fall in. So depending on how much you bet, you'll fall into different commission rates, and we would take a fee on your profitable settlements. And so if you make a bet, and let's say you make $200, we would take up to a 3% fee on that $200.

Shane Mercer [00:18:18]:

Yeah. So, you you said 3% on $200. Does does the fee go up from there, or is it capped at 3% so it'd be 3% on $10,000?

Justin Deutsch [00:18:27]:

It'll be capped at 3%, and that will be for the lowest volume player. So if you just come on and, you know, we don't, you know, we don't know your betting habits or anything, you come on and you bet $20 on a game, it'll be 3%. But if you come on and you're betting, you know, 1,000 of dollars consistently and you accrue what are called Stacks points, you then will get down to potentially a 0% commission rate, at which point we would not be making any money off you, on your betting. And the hopes would be that we get enough people involved in the platform where there's constantly, you know, a refreshment of new players that are paying those fees in essence to subsidize the more, you know, experienced and veteran players who have been on a long time. And so that's our way of incentivizing loyalty because a big problem from my perspective in this industry is these big sportsbooks do a lot to, you know, acquire a customer. But once you're on, it's really hard to retain one from going from DraftKings to FanDuel or to MGM or Caesars or Bet365. And so loyalty, in our opinion, will be really important. We want people to stick with Stacks, and the more you bet on it, the the more perks you will get, especially when it comes to commission rates.

Shane Mercer [00:19:38]:

So, you know, on on this topic of of loyalty and customer retention and and losing customers and that kind of thing, then I wanna kind of ask you about that. So it sounds like that your, you know, your your kind of business model is not based off of customer loss like a lot of the sportsbooks.

Justin Deutsch [00:19:57]:

Correct. The the biggest difference between an exchange and a sportsbook is we are not betting against you. So our customer service relationship is what can we do to make your experience better, to make it so you can make more money, not so we can make more money off of you? And and that, in and of itself creates a different dynamic of the way that we talk with customers, what we want to engage with. Every time a customer comes on, we send you a note asking for feedback. Have you looked at the app? What can we do better to make you understand and be able to use this? Because at the end of the day, what we're gonna be a high volume, low margin business, and every other industry that looks anything like an asset class ultimately evolves into a high margin or a high volume, low margin industry. For some reason, in sports betting, everything is going the other way. So you have traditional sportsbooks that are getting regulators to approve new features that are higher margin. So same game parlays, for example.

Justin Deutsch [00:20:53]:

If you actually did the math on the same game parlay, it's way worse odds than if you were just betting a buddy at a bar and even paying 3% commission to the bartender. Right? So, like, that's where it's interesting to me that in every other I come from crypto. I come from traditional equities. In all of those industries, it's all about what can we do to bring down margin as a community and to make it more fair. And for some reason, in sports betting, it's it's going the other way, and we're we're trying to buck that trend and bring it back to more favorable outcomes for players, not only sharps, but retail recreational players also.

Shane Mercer [00:21:29]:

Exchanges, you know, until now and and, you know, have been, you know, like, you're the 1st in Ontario. I know of 1 or 2 others in North America, you know, that aren't in the Ontario regulated market, but I'm familiar with a bunch in the UK and and in Europe. So they're they're a little bit ahead of us in in that sense when it comes to sort of adoption of exchanges. I guess, how do you see Stacks growing in Ontario in the Ontario market, but do you also see it sort of expanding beyond Ontario to the rest of North America? And how do you go about trying to get people to understand what it is you're doing while they're betting on FanDuel, DraftKings 365, all the all the typical ones.

Justin Deutsch [00:22:12]:

Yeah. So I think that the the start is more sharp bettors and institutional like players. Those folks will probably learn it a lot quicker because they're somewhat forced to because their business model is to make money on sports betting, and they're gonna be more price sensitive than someone who is willing to go, you know, bet a same game parlay at a FanDuel. And so the idea is that once we build up this community of folks who care about price, want to be able to get their best bet off, then we end up with a point where our pricing and it already has somewhat gotten there where if you look at an odds aggregator or or a bet stamp, for example, you're gonna see Stacks as the best price and, you know, come game time, I'd say roughly 50%, if not more, of major market spreads, totals, money lines. And once you have that, then as a recreational player, at some point, you get tired of losing. And it's how I got into, you know, this side of the sports betting industry. I was in losing recreational sports bettor that once I started betting against peers in the trading industry, realized I could actually make money doing it, but there was no infrastructure in the regulated space to be able to do that. And so that's really what we're providing is the infrastructure to show that pricing can be a heck of a lot better than minus 110, minus 110.

Justin Deutsch [00:23:27]:

And and we're we're starting to show that. Now it's about educating users. For example, like, you weren't positive what you were looking at right when you looked. And, you know, while I built this more with a trader in mind, now we're you know, we've shifted our our interface. We're we're dedicating more resources to attracting a retail sports bettor who does understand things like American odds and decimal odds better than 0 to a 100 pricing. And so we recognize that. Obviously, like, we're still new to market, but that's the key is that we're gonna listen to people like you and others out there, and we have the ability to actually build off of that quickly and deliver in 2 weeks what it might take one of the behemoths in the industry, you know, 6 months to give you if they wanna pay attention to you at all because realistically, you probably aren't going to be that important to them, especially if you're a winning bettor.

Shane Mercer [00:24:19]:

Not only you're not important, you're a problem for them as a winning bettor. And, you know, we we often talk about getting limited on this, on this podcast and how to go about it and what to do next after getting limited because that's such a frequent problem for us. And so, you know, it's something that that we kind of talk about at at length here. But I I gotta ask you then, you know, When when I go on onto the and I and to be honest, you know, I haven't placed my my first, I guess I'll call it my 1st contract on Stacks. But I I I'm looking forward to it, but there's a lot of you you really only have a few markets at at this stage. So what does the plan look like when it when it comes to developing more markets?

Justin Deutsch [00:25:01]:

Yeah. So developing more markets, getting into new jurisdictions, all in the road map. For right now, our focus is on concentrating liquidity where we believe, you know, bettors want to be betting large sums. And so, you know, you're not whatever sportsbook you go to, if you want to put a big bet on some obscure prop, you're probably not going to get it down because they don't have enough information to be able to analyze what the price should be. And if you do get it down, you're probably paying a pretty significant margin on that. And so our focus was first to disrupt the core markets, the ones that are priced at pretty efficiently because you shouldn't be paying the 10%, 12% hold on those markets. And then from there, start releasing more and more. And, you know, the the product feature I'm most excited about that hopefully roll out we roll out later in the year will be for you as the player to be able to tell us, hey.

Justin Deutsch [00:25:53]:

I wanna see a market on x, y, or z. And as long as we can verify the outcome of it, our technology is suited to be able to put that market up for you to be able to go place orders and be on the other side of it. What we want to avoid is releasing all of these markets like a lot of these sports folks do and showing you all the glitz and glory. And then when you go actually place a bet, they're like, sorry. We'll only let you bet, you know, $10 on that. Well, it's not really helpful to me to be able to bet, you know, all these crazy things if I can't actually bet an amount that's equivalent to at least 1 unit, you know, of what I'm betting on a spread. And so our focus has been more so on those core markets, but certainly, we want to be able to take on any action that that players in Ontario and and other North American jurisdictions will want at some point in the near future.

Shane Mercer [00:26:41]:

Earlier, you know, you brought up, the idea of, of how sort of bad the odds are when you make a parlay, a same game parlay, which are super heavily promoted by the sportsbooks and something we often sort of speak out kind of against. At least if you wanna be a long term winning bettor, You know? There's there's nothing wrong with making a same game parlay if it's all just for fun, and, you know, that that's what you're about. But if you wanna be a long term winning sports bettor, you probably wanna ditch the parlays altogether or at least, you know, for the most part. But could you do a parlay on on something like Stacks? How would that work?

Justin Deutsch [00:27:14]:

So right now, we we aren't offering parlays, for a lot of the reasons I just mentioned, but Yeah. Theoretically and in the road map, you will be able to. So what you would say is and and this is even cooler, is not only will you be able to bet a parlay, you'll be able to bet against a parlay. So if you really wanna be a winning sports bettor, the best thing that you could do to be a winning sports bettor is go be the book. It's really expensive to do it if you wanna do it in a regulated market. And so a lot of folks are gonna sit back and be like, yeah, I'll just be the player. Well, we take all of that burden off of you and let you be the bookie on a platform where you don't need to pay any of the operational costs. And so you'll be able to go on and say, alright.

Justin Deutsch [00:27:52]:

Anthony Davis over points, Lebron under assists. I wanna parlay those. All you need is someone on the other side willing to take the opposite. So you're gonna get better pricing on both sides, and you get the ability to be the bookie on it if you prefer that. And so that, you know, once we build up this community of users, we will be able to offer pretty much anything that you see in a traditional sportsbook with better pricing and more optionality and risk mitigating tools.

Shane Mercer [00:28:20]:

I I love this idea of of being able to bet against someone else's parlay. You know? Like, that just sounds like gold to me.

Justin Deutsch [00:28:28]:

Sounds like free money.

Shane Mercer [00:28:31]:

In a lot of ways, you know, it it it sounds like, you know, it would be it would be a great option, to explore. Okay. So, Justin, you know, you you brought up sort of that a big part of your strategy, you know, for at least these initial stage stages of your growth and development is is bringing in sharp sports bettors and sort of, you know, people who are more kind of entrenched in the ecosystem already. This podcast, speaks to a lot of sharp bettors out there. Many members of our community into the 6 figure, 7 figure bankroll territory. You know, like I mentioned, you know, the the problems for them are things like getting limited, not being able to bet enough money on on certain wagers that they like. And and a big focus too at at PlayLive is exactly that, live sports betting and and, you know, in time, real, real time wagers. What would you say, to our community, about exchanges? And and I guess, you know, how would you convince them to, you know, explore it?

Justin Deutsch [00:29:36]:

1st thing I would say is if making money betting on sports is actually what you're in this for, then not having access to an exchange or, frankly, any sportsbook that you could possibly, you know, get money down at is doing yourself a disservice. So take the time to set up accounts, to learn, to be able to have those outs. That that's 1st and foremost. We you know, we've seen a good amount of people come on and, you know, like you be confused at first. And when I first got into trading, I was confused too. It really doesn't take that long to learn it. And once you do learn it, you're never gonna wanna go back the other way just because there's so much more optionality for you. And and and just spread the word because the beauty of our platform is it gets better with more people on it.

Justin Deutsch [00:30:23]:

And so by you being on it, if you want the best prices, the best outcomes, the best potential profitability, it's gonna benefit you to bring on a 100 more people that think like you. And at the end of the day, everyone has a different sports betting strategy. If being a sharp just meant, you know, arbing or or taking advantage of some price inefficiency, then maybe not. But there are folks out there who who do treat sports betting with analytics and like a hedge fund would equities where you wanna take a position on a game that others may think is a good price. And so the more people that, you know, are trying to bet big amounts, trying to get best price that are in the community, the better off it's gonna be for everyone else, which creates this network effect that ultimately, you know, puts us in in conversations of being able to compete with a lot of these bigger sportsbooks.

Shane Mercer [00:31:13]:

Justin Deutsch, CEO of Stacks. Justin, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it, and and best of luck to to you and the team at Stacks. We would love to probably have you back on the show at some point in the future. And in the meantime, I will learn how to use it.

Justin Deutsch [00:31:30]:

Appreciate it, Shane. Thanks for having me.

Shane Mercer [00:31:32]:

Alright. Take care. Alright. Justin Deutsch with, with Stacks, the CEO of Stacks. Man, I learned a lot there. You know, I think it's a bit funny too because I'm trying to, you know, figure out how to place a wager on this guy's site. I was trying to do it ahead of time, but I didn't really understand it. So I didn't feel like I should go ahead and do it.

Shane Mercer [00:31:58]:

But now I feel a little more confident, and I'm planning to play with the app a little bit and kind of learn a little bit about it. But pace, what overall, what did you what did you think of him? What do you think of what they're doing over there at Stacks?

Andrew Pace [00:32:09]:

Yeah. It it it, Exchange has been around for a long time. And I I remember, you know, in my book hunt journey years ago, obviously, coming across, Betfair and and a few others. And, you know, being denied access in in North America. So

Shane Mercer [00:32:29]:

a lot

Andrew Pace [00:32:29]:

of people that are are watching this that are from the UK, would kinda laugh and feel like these guys don't know what an exchange is. Well, we do. Shane, maybe not as not as well as I did there in the beginning. But, the the simple reality is that, as, up until recently, we we just haven't been been able to actually use them. So I like to think about it. I just go back to the early 2000 or mid 2000s, where you go, poker's sort of booming and and poker's exploding. You know, an exchange is very much like a poker table. You know, you've got the the casino there taking a cut, whether it's a tournament or, or an actual cash table game, based on a percentage of of of hands being played, and and everyone else is just playing against each other.

Andrew Pace [00:33:20]:

If you wanna fold your hand, you can fold your hand. If you wanna put forth the wager that you wanna put forth, you have that opportunity. What's nice about that is just from the standpoint of wanting a specific line. The market provided again, liquidity is is liquidity sounds like the issue, but also the solution. You know, you you you put a market together and or or a line together, and that's the line that you want. Well, the other side of that line being bought will be dictated by the market. And if you post a line that doesn't get bought, you know, you probably wasn't the the the right wager to to offer. And then the flip side to that is, if if you if you want a wager and and it does completely get bought up, you know, you're you're getting the action in the that specifically you wanted, to get in.

Andrew Pace [00:34:16]:

So I I thought that that, was all really cool. We we didn't get into the discussion of of live wagering on their platform. But I do know that that opportunity exists as well. So a lot of people may watch this and say, oh, it's just this or it's just that. Those opportunities do exist, and we're gonna be getting, into that quite a bit more very soon on this show, which I'm really excited for. Now, lot of really cool things that he touched on, referencing the sports betting landscape as an asset class, and referencing stacks as the low margin, solution in that space, was something that just kinda sat really well with me. The the concept of peer to peer wagering, implies, of course, that no players get limited. So when you're looking at, this landscape as a whole, the more competitive that these types of companies become, the better off the player is.

Andrew Pace [00:35:24]:

Number 1, as he touched on, you wanna have lots of accounts. So, it gives you another option, another alternative. Number 2, being able to set lines that, you want and then have the market fill them, which which we touched on just being so powerful. And I I think, finally, just relating to all of that stuff, having those options and alternatives, but then also being able to decline, you know, where you go, The line is moved, I'm pulling this offer out, and and being able to be very hands on with the approach, that you're taking with with your betting styles and strategies. So, really, really cool stuff, and really excited. These are the people in the industry that, you know, as inplayLIVE, behind the lines, whatever you wanna call it, we really do want to succeed. So sportsbook like that, obviously, I'm I'm more than happy to support and, promote for that matter. Like, we've had sportsbooks on here before, and we're gonna have more sportsbooks on here before where, you know, we can make some suggestions about what we would like to see.

Andrew Pace [00:36:36]:

But but, ultimately, at the end of the day, those are their decisions. And, the decisions that Justin is making with this platform are ones that I can I can get behind, and support at this time? Right? So it's exciting stuff.

Shane Mercer [00:36:50]:

Yeah. You know, what what really stood out to me there, from the conversation is 1, not just a desire to attract sharp action, but the like, this this product that they're creating is is very much at this stage in the early stages, and it is its success is dependent on sharp action. And he kind of made that made that clear that they need the sharp action at that book to build the ecosystem of it all. And I thought that that was really interesting. You know, whereas all the rest of the the industry tries to, you know, eliminate sharp action and and limit us and get get rid of us and, you know, just kind of, you know, take that you know, the small losses from us that that they'll that they'll have to eat as sort of a cost of doing business. But, you know, they're all investing in their algorithms to identify sharp action quicker and, you know, eliminate it faster. These guys are saying no. No.

Shane Mercer [00:37:48]:

No. It's almost the complete opposite of that. We need sharp action, and our our product won't be successful without it.

Andrew Pace [00:37:55]:

Yeah. It's essentially the sharp action that's setting the lines. Right? Yeah. So, yeah. It's it's awesome. And, and definitely something that we wanna see succeed. There's hope in the industry when when these conversations happen and these businesses get put forth. And one thing that is, just really cool is the fact that, Shane, you can go today and and and place a wager there that might not exist, but that you want that could get fulfilled.

Andrew Pace [00:38:26]:

And it's in a regulated market in Ontario, where it's like you just became a sports book yourself or a bookie yourself. Not necessarily from the standpoint of trying to take someone else's money, but simply the line that you wanted to wager on being offered in a regulated landscape because of this, infrastructure that that has been set up. Also, I think it's worth noting. I haven't seen those lines and how how it all all works specifically, just be not being in Ontario myself. But if you go to the Bet 3 six fives, the FanDuel, the DraftKings, and you put together, a parlay or or, you know, a recreational wager, then you head over to a pinnacle or a bookmaker, or in theory, an exchange like Stacks. You're going to put together a wager that pound for pound will pay much more on these other sites. So if I go over to Pinnacle, and I'm like, I'm gonna put together this parlay, it might pay a significant, amount more than these other sites that these people are using. So for the recreational players that are being inundated with all these ads, wouldn't you rather win a couple $100 more on your Parley than $200 less? These these sites have better lines and and better offerings.

Andrew Pace [00:39:57]:

So, definitely something that, even recreational players should be keeping in mind. Yeah. It might not be as flashy as bet 365. Right? But head over there, check it out, place some wagers. If you're gonna string together some parlays, just just do a little shopping, guys. Like, don't don't grab the the same thing off the shelf at the grocery store, that costs much more money. Doesn't make any sense.

Shane Mercer [00:40:25]:

Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the parlays. That whole idea of, you know, somebody could post their parlay, and and I can go and bet against it. That's kind of interesting too. You know, might be kind of kind of fun to experiment with that as as, you know, this thing kinda grows. And if you see that sort of thing out there, hey, oh, somebody's got this, you know, 3 or 4 leg parlay, it might be worth, you know, it'll be a high juice. I'm sure to bet against their parlay, but it might be worth it. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:40:52]:

Totally. Yeah. I I'm not sure exactly if that's how it works. I think that my experience with them in the past is that you fill a percentage of the order, through through clicking on that particular game as it's added to your parlay, but I I I really don't know how that how that side of it works. I don't know if I build up a parlay myself and post it, and someone can just go in there and accept the other side. There's there's a reason why these sportsbooks love these parlays because they can handle the risk of them. Right? So, like, if this guy's parlay pays at a $100 and you have to you have to pay it out, I know that can sync people really quick. And there are, people that play in the cash business, like bookies, that have been completely sunk by someone hitting parlay.

Andrew Pace [00:41:35]:

So, also also something to keep in mind on that side of things, of course.

Shane Mercer [00:41:42]:

Yeah. Alright. Well, I think that just about, does it for this week. But, a couple of things to note, as I mentioned, coming up, next week, we will talk all things Super Bowl, and we'll have a whole group of, Imply Live Pros, members of the flock on the show. And, as pace you alluded to this earlier, we will be talking more about the idea of exchanges in the future as well in the next few weeks. We'll plan to talk to, the executives from another one and, really kind of dive into it. And, know, for me, this is just a great sort of learning process, and I'm really excited to sort of see, where those go, in the future. So, you know, lots to look forward to there also coming up in this time of year, we are really kind of, dialing into college basketball within the inplayLIVE community.

Shane Mercer [00:42:32]:

Feel like college basketball, you know, you, and you're not a part of the community. This is a great time to join and find out what it's all about. Cause we kind of really kind of dial it in now. And a big part of that process is, that that's sort of new for members this year is, the odds jam tool, which is available and, you know, providing live odds on all of these games all at once. It's, it's it's really helpful. I find it really helpful, but, Pace, I don't know. How do you find it when you're when you're looking at, college basketball lines?

Andrew Pace [00:43:01]:

Well, it it's it's just great to quickly know, like, I am about to spin 215a half as a total. And there's a 214 and a 217 out there. So if you like to middle, awesome. You know, you just found yourself a nice 3 point middle. But if you like to uncover a softer line, we just saw the soft at the 214 and the 217, depending on which side of that game you're betting on. Again, why? You don't go to a grocery store and buy the more expensive, product that's the exact same as the other one. You'd grab the one that, is a little bit cheaper. So it it just makes things actually that simple.

Andrew Pace [00:43:44]:

So you can use promo code inplaylive, for 35% off your 1st month, inplaylive 15 for 15% off every month, over at oddsjam.com.

Shane Mercer [00:43:54]:

Awesome. Alright, buddy. Well, enjoy Hawaii. Enjoy the break enjoy that time of disconnecting, unplugging, and spending time with your family. You definitely have have earned it. So enjoy, buddy. Appreciate it. Cheers, Shane.

Andrew Pace [00:44:16]:

Thanks, guys.

Shane Mercer [00:44:17]:

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.