Episode 69

Shane Mercer [00:00:00]:

Feel free to answer this however you want, but I gotta ask because I think many of our of our audience members are are thinking it. But are you VPN friendly? Hello, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the only podcast purifying the sports betting industry. Remember to like, download, subscribe, follow us on all the socials at inplayLIVE. Today's show, eliminating the big. I'm your host, Shane Mercer, as always joined by Andrew Pace, founder of inplayLIVE, a community of like minded sports bettors dedicated to long term success. And today, we've got Jacob Fortinski joining us. He is the CEO and cofounder of Novig, which calls itself the 1st prediction market for sports. Jacob, welcome to the show.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:01:04]:

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

Shane Mercer [00:01:06]:

Really excited to have you on here. So give us a little bit of the origin story. What is no big and how is it the first prediction market for sports?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:01:16]:

Yeah. So the idea in in a nutshell is to introduce financial exchange technology to the industry of sports betting. Basically, cutting out the middleman, which is the house, and creating a 2 sided marketplace similar to company companies like Betfair, but very much modeled after prediction markets. So I I started the company 3 years ago while I was a senior at Harvard with my friend, Kelechi. Both of us had experience in financial trading. I was very active in in betting on politics on, you know, betting markets. And it you know, I was introduced to sports betting sort of through the the poker scene, which I was very active in and was just, you know, dumbfounded that there existed this industry with $2,000,000,000,000 in global volume each year. That was still dominated by these legacy players that essentially were the counterparty of every bet they took in, you know, 8 to 10% big on average, and felt like there was just a much more fair, more sort of efficient and, you know, better way, more innovative way of structuring this market that resembled sort of under the hood like a Coinbase or NASDAQ.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:02:20]:

But, like, on the surface, you know, was more similar to other prediction markets like Polymarket or Cal sheet and, sort of like Robinhood for betting where we say, you know, we're the 1st commission free or no big platform where you can put up a $100, a stranger can put up a $100, and winner gets $200. On basically and any other betting platform in the world, winner would get $200. Winner would get 1.80, but on Novig, winner would get 200. So that's sort of the value proposition in in a nutshell. Happy to dive deeper into how we structure the market or how we enable that.

Andrew Pace [00:02:52]:

Oh, keep going. Keep going.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:02:54]:

Yeah. So, you know, the, it's basically just a central limit order book. Right? So the we allow users I'd say our value proposition is threefold. 1 is that we will you know, we have liquidity in every single market. So unlike other sort of exchanges, we provide liquidity ourselves. So if we can't find a counterparty for you, we'll serve as the counterparty.

Andrew Pace [00:03:15]:

Okay. I gotta I gotta stop you there. So how how do how do you how does that how is that possible? Because that's amazing.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:03:22]:

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think we are really trying to build the best, you know, sports wagering system, the best, you know, user experience possible. And the way that we seek to do that is by creating a marketplace where anyone can offer their their own price. But because 2 sided marketplaces often have this cold start problem, they have a hard time reaching critical mass.

Andrew Pace [00:03:43]:

100%. Yep.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:03:44]:

We're basically from, you know, primarily as a bootstrapping mechanism saying that we'll always be providing a price in every single market. So, you know, if we're at minus 104 on each side, users can come in and say, I'm willing to do minus 103 on each side, sort of be your own house, be your own book. People can bet into you, and then you're getting plus 103 on each side, sort of being a two way market maker the way that people do in securities markets or crypto markets or or whatnot. But the idea is that in every single one of our markets, you will never have the issue of going on to the platform and not having a counterparty, which if any of your listeners are familiar with, you know, betting, I used you know, I know people that would bet NBA on, like, Betfair and BetDac and what and whatever.

Andrew Pace [00:04:24]:

They're the only person trying to do it.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:04:27]:

Yeah. It's like there's $5 to bet against.

Andrew Pace [00:04:29]:

And, like, you

Jacob Fortinsky [00:04:29]:

might say, oh, there's, like, you know, $3,000 of, of liquidity available, but it's, like, 5. That's, like, 5 literally $5 at a reasonable price and the rest is at, like, you know, whatever minus, you know, 99100 or something. Right. So so let

Andrew Pace [00:04:43]:

let's just paint a hypothetical scenario right now. I wanna bet on, some baseball tonight. I go over to Novig, and I am offering a line, and and there let's just say there is not someone else to to pick up the other side. I can just take your line in instead.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:05:05]:

Yeah. So it's it's just a public anonymized exchange. So you don't necessarily know who your counterparty is. It could be Novig. It could be your friend. It could be a stranger or hedge fund or whoever.

Andrew Pace [00:05:15]:

The

Jacob Fortinsky [00:05:15]:

idea is, like, it's the same one way when you're, let's say, buying 10 shares of Apple. You don't necessarily know who's on the other side. It could be Right. Zelle or it could be some Joe Schmo.

Andrew Pace [00:05:24]:

So so so can we talk about that quickly before we move on? Like, would you guys have funding in place to get started then so that you can offer some of these lines or you're outsourcing all of them?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:05:34]:

No. So we're internalizing everything. So Okay. Unlike other exchanges, you know, I and I have nothing but respect for anyone who's trying to innovate in this space. But I think the the biggest challenge at start you know, with scaling any business is if you're outsourcing the sort of the core service that you're providing your users, it makes it very difficult operationally, commercially to be successful. So from day 1, we realized, you know, we actually need to be able to provide these prices ourselves. So if you go into a very liquid market, say, like, you know, an old spread that's, like, very strong in the main whatever it is, those prices will basically 99% likely be against us. But if you're betting, let's say, you know, NFL money line in in the playoffs, then it's more of an efficient market and we have less of a need to provide liquidity in this market.

Andrew Pace [00:06:23]:

Okay. I'm I'm just gonna kinda keep, like, I know I really don't wanna take you off the train of thought when you were initially walking us through, but just because you brought up the all the alternate lines. Sure. So if we head over to your site, you just mentioned that alternate lines are available, which, I mean, a lot of exchanges are that are starting out don't have a feature like that at all. Would there be other markets available? Things like player props and and other such, you know, quarter lines, half lines, or is it just gonna be, you know, main markets with alternate lines?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:06:53]:

Yeah. So maybe it's it's helpful to just sort of level set and say that. So we were live, as a regulated sports book offering, a quasi exchange product in Colorado for the 1st 4 months of this year. We're doing very well. We're growing 90% month over month, very strong feedback from users. People loved it. But, you know, as we're thinking about expanding, you know, it became very clear that the regulated environment was challenging for a number of reasons. So we're pivoting to a sweepstakes framework, similar regulatory framework to companies like Flip.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:07:22]:

So it it'll be a sort of no purchase necessary with, like, a free to play version as well as a paid version with Novig coins and Novig cash. And the idea I mean, I'm happy to sort of explain that in more detail, but we'll be launching in 42 states in DC, next next month in mid August. Boom. Sort of our anticipated timeline. Yeah. Very excited. Very big news. The idea is really to try to build the best sports prediction market.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:07:48]:

You know, we we can't, legally, you know, call it betting, but, you know, the ability to win cash prizes, compete for Novig Cash, which is one to 1 with USD, you know, sort of a virtual currency, which allows us to offer our product, essentially nationally. And the idea is, you know, we're we want to build the best exchange, but even sort of more fundamental than that, we wanna build the best, you know, sports prediction app, period. And we don't want necessarily everyone to know that this is, like, an exchange. So if you're just accustomed to being a price taker and you're not interested at all in setting your own lines, like, the the fundamental user experience, the app looks remarkably similar similar to a FanDuel or DraftKings.

Andrew Pace [00:08:27]:

Very good.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:08:28]:

Order slip, you can sort of toggle between what we call make and take. So instead of taking the best price, you can click make and then type in your own odds, swipe, and it'll say this order is available to the market, and then you get notified, you know Beautiful. 2 seconds or 2 minutes when it's filled. You can cancel it at any time.

Andrew Pace [00:08:42]:

Beautiful. I

Jacob Fortinsky [00:08:43]:

I got it. Now the the marketing

Shane Mercer [00:08:46]:

so sorry to cut you off there, Jacob. But I just wanna ask quickly, you know, because you guys are are doing everything internally and you're you're posting lines, if the liquidity isn't there for all of these markets that that you're, you know, promising to offer, Are you taking a big on those? I understand that there's an option there, you know, for for peer to peer betting, but I imagine that you've got to be taking a little bit of a big on those markets that you're you're creating and providing all the liquidity for.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:09:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. And it's not something that we, you know, try to hide. Like, there is a spread that's necessary to post lines. And, you know, I think everyone is understands that there's risk in doing doing that. And if you posted, you know, minus 101 or plus a 100 on every single market, you'd be out of business. So, you know, the idea is it's no vague in the sense that on peer to peer transactions, there's no there's no, you know, middleman taking any sort of cut.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:09:40]:

When we're posting liquidity, it's, you know, typically at, like, a 3% spread. So, you know, whatever minus 104 or something on on each side, but then anyone can just, you know, post a better price. And the idea of this is not really, like, to, you know you know, be a sports book and to sort of hide the fact that we we're, like, a counterparty of a lot of trade. It's really just so that, you know, we can solve this problem where, like, if there isn't a counterparty, we can be the counterparty. And even in those instances, we'll give you a better price than you get at even, you know, a company like Circa. So to answer your question, PACE, about the markets that we offer right now, it's, all the major sports, totals, spreads, and money lines. So, you know, baseball, basketball, football, hockey, college basketball, college football. We're rolling out tennis very shortly.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:10:31]:

We'll be rolling out MMA and golf and other markets in the next couple of months. So when we start initially, you know, just because we're trying to concentrate liquidity so we can you know, there's this trade off between offering more sports and having deeper liquidity in the markets where we offer. So starting just for the main markets, but we also have, like, a full, array of of, alt lines. We'll be rolling out player props. Also in the next few weeks, we'll actually be, like, the first exchange company with Parley's available as well, which will come in the next, let's say, 3 or 4 months. So, you know, we're we move very fast. We're, like, slowly working on building out the product. The initial sort of product that we've built is, focused around main markets, but, you know, we hope to quickly expand beyond that.

Andrew Pace [00:11:18]:

That's so cool, man. Congrats on the the, like, the big launch and getting rolled out to, like, nationwide. That's awesome. So, like, from a liquidity standpoint, you know, obviously, you just mentioned circa, you know, providing a VIG, but one that's even less than than than theirs. Obviously, that's got a lot of appeal, and we know firsthand when that is the case, the the, players that you attract are gonna be pretty sharp guys, out of the gate. So if I were to come along and I wanted to bet, like, say, $100,000 on, one of the baseball games tonight, would you guys take that wager, today?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:12:02]:

Yeah. That's a good question. So, and, yeah, this is an important caveat that given the regulatory framework under which we're operating, we're currently restricted to offer, max payout of $5,000. You can bet infinitely as many times. You know, you could bet. You can go and place 20 bets with $5,000 payouts or you can bet 200 times. But the on individual orders, you know, they're they are limited to $5,000 payout. So, yeah, that's an important caveat, but the idea is, you know, we're we're not limiting any bettors.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:12:41]:

As I said, you know, we have infinite rebets, So you'll be able to get as much money down, as as you want. And if we're the counterparty, you know, every time we take a max wager, we'll, like, move our price by, you know, half percent or so. But,

Andrew Pace [00:12:56]:

Right. Right. So the the, if if I wanna spend $5,000 on on a game, I can do that. If I wanna spend a second 5,000, I can do that, but I might not be getting the same price, as would be typical in the industry across the board anyway. So that that that system is in place because that was gonna be my next question because you were gonna attract a lot of sharp players if if you said no to that question. So

Jacob Fortinsky [00:13:20]:

Yeah. I mean, I think we, you know, we we set our lines not so dissimilarly from other Sharp books in that, like, we look at where the rest of the market is at. You know, we'll see what, you know, Betris and Pinnacle and, you know, whoever is, what their prices are. And, you know, we we do a lot of modeling ourselves. So sometimes we will have an opinion on the market and we'll be, you know, 3% off on the market. So, you know, know, maybe our prices won't necessarily be better on both sides. We'll have a lower hold on average, but it might be, like, on one side of the market, we're roughly e equal to the market and the other side, you know, we're 3 or 4% better.

Shane Mercer [00:13:57]:

If I wanna use Novig, so I'm in Ontario, and I checked out your website. I've joined the wait list. So I'm on the wait list. But when will I have access to Novig?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:14:09]:

Yeah. Yeah. So first, let let me that gives me an opportunity to plug our wait list. We have a, you know, very big things coming both next month and in the coming months. So I encourage all of your listeners to go to our website and sign up for our wait list. It's not just like a marketing tactic. We do ship all of our products that we've built first to the people on our wait list before making them publicly available. Unfortunately, right now, we are not, we don't have any, immediate plans to expand to Canada.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:14:37]:

I would love to. You know, I, I'm part Canadian, actually, and it it'd be very cool to, you know, open up to the the rest of the North American market. I hope that at some point in 2025, we'll be available in Canada. But for now, we have plans just to to, go live in 42 states in the US and DC.

Shane Mercer [00:14:58]:

So you started off though in Colorado. Give me a little bit give me a sense of how that went, and now how are you going to make this this expansion and do it so quickly?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:15:09]:

Yeah. So, we we obtained a sports betting operator license in Colorado. We launched there January 2nd, and we're doing quite well. The regulators, didn't allow us to offer the, what we call the make order feature or what other places might call limit order feature where we allow users to offer their own price. So they basically we are basically operating as a Sharp sports book there. We did our best to sort of balance the book and to move lines according to the action so that it essentially functions sort of like a peer to peer platform. That's ultimately why we decided to move in the Sweepstakes direction that we could basically implement our vision as we initially intended to do so. They're really unrestricted by some of the more, you know, I'd say outdated sports betting regulations.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:15:59]:

But in Colorado, yeah, we did very well. We were growing 90% month over month. We had probably about 2,000 users, who, you know, loved our platform. You know, we had, like, the best or if not, maybe the second best prices in the market. You know, given the sort of marketplace dynamic of what we're building, the prices will only get better as we get more users. You know, you can sort of think about it like the bid ask spread of an Apple share is much, much narrower than some penny stock or, you know, the eBay, you know, the the the prices for, like, the most liquid products are the ones with the most competitive prices. So as we scale, I think that it, you know, will probably, you know, ultimately approach the limit of truly no big. But, anyway, yeah, we did very well in Colorado.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:16:47]:

We, really were spending nothing on marketing. It's mainly just word-of-mouth. So when we launch next month nationally, it's gonna be primarily just our wait list and, a referral network. And then we're gonna start doing a a larger marketing, push towards the end of the year. So, yeah, I think if we did as well nationally as we did in Colorado, we're gonna be doing something, I think, really revolutionary in the industry.

Shane Mercer [00:17:17]:

Yeah. I mean, that's it's a big, it's a big jump to get into 43 states. I I don't know of many exchanges that are, creating as many markets as you are and are going to be that widely available in in the US.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:17:30]:

Yeah. And we're like, to that point, we're gonna be available in states like California, Texas, Florida, states where, you know, FanDuel, DraftKings, BetMGM, Circa, etcetera are not able to operate legally. So there's, I think, a real regulatory arbitrage opportunity that we're we're leveraging similar to the way that DraftKings and FanDuel did in their early days. So I think that's gonna allow us to not only have a better product and better prices, but also to be available in, places where, you know, our competitors are not.

Shane Mercer [00:18:02]:

Feel free to answer this however you want, but I gotta ask because I think many of our of our audience members are are thinking it. But are you VPN friendly?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:18:21]:

No. No. No. It's not even just that I wanna answer that. I I will say in the affirmative that we are VPN unfriendly. Okay. We are you know, I think that there's given that we're now operating in a less regulated environment, I think it's very important for us to establish a sense of integrity and credibility among our users. And so we're holding ourselves to the same standard that the regulators held us to in Colorado.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:18:45]:

So we're not changing any of our KYC or, you know, geofencing, AML, anti fraud, any of that. All of those controls are staying the same even though we're not technically required to anymore. So we're still going to be just as strict as, you know, as any regulated operator in preventing VPNs.

Shane Mercer [00:19:06]:

I appreciate the honest, the honest answer, but I had to ask because I I just know many are many are thinking it.

Andrew Pace [00:19:13]:

I have a I have a couple questions here. So the first thing I wanna just touch on is the the Paris Smith, anti exchange comment. I mean, she very much said, unless someone could solve these things. Yeah. And she was referencing liquidity. She was referencing, like, a market maker's ability to offer their lines on both sides of a wager so that when, when you come on there, you could just take one side as a user. And then, obviously, some of the other things I think that you touched on are really cool from the standpoint of, like, you said it's gonna look like a DraftKings or a FanDuel, which is I mean, that's that's pretty important, I think, for for adaptability. I think there is a challenge with, like, if you wanna go make a sports bet, people don't necessarily know how to do that, and they need to learn how to do it.

Andrew Pace [00:20:01]:

And then they don't wanna go learn how to do this whole new thing. So you you do want that simplicity. So I just wanted to touch on that. The the the next thing that I wanted to ask just because I'm gonna be in, Nevada next week or this week rather sorry. I'm going tomorrow. Jeez. My calendar all messed up. Can I, as a Canadian, can I use the product while I'm in the United States, or do I have to have a US, address?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:20:29]:

You can use the product while you're in the US. Unfortunately, we're not gonna be available in Nevada. Okay. It states where we're not gonna be allowed. But, yeah, in any other place, it just checks your location. Doesn't matter where you're a resident of. Very cool. And, yeah, to return briefly to your earlier point.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:20:45]:

I mean, this is maybe a little too, like, nitty gritty, but the by virtue of of pivoting to this alternative regulatory framework, we're exempt from a lot of the things that make operating in exchange very difficult. Number 1, the federal excise tax. So there's a tax of 25 basis points on all volume, which exchanges space. So that makes it very difficult for low margin products. Right? If you are taking an 8% VIG, giving a quarter of a percent to the federal government is much less of a big deal than if you're, you know, having a 2% spread, from a business model perspective. Number 2 is that we don't have to pay the the tax the the tax that each state has on net revenue as well. So, like, just operating a regulated sports book in the US is very difficult because you have to abide by, you know, 32 different states, you know, privacy policies and and marketing rules and tax laws as well as the federal government. So you're sometimes double paying, for lots of things.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:21:45]:

Number 3 is that and most importantly, is that we don't have to deal with, the federal federal wire act in the same way. So we could have one singular liquidity pool. And some exchanges in the past have really struggled with being able to replicate that in each state where they operate. So, you know, just for example, if you're live in, let's say, New Jersey and Colorado, you can't have a user in Colorado bet directly against someone in New Jersey, and that they'd have you'd have to have sort of local markets. And then you'd have to get your market makers to be licensed in it in every state where you operate. So the more market makers that you have around the table that, you know, you're depending upon to offer your core product to your your users, the more people that have leverage over you as a company. And it makes it very difficult to generate enough revenue for the business model to be, I think, commercially viable.

Andrew Pace [00:22:35]:

And you've you've solved that is what you're saying. Right? You're saying because of the route that you've went, you've gone with the price model

Jacob Fortinsky [00:22:42]:

Yeah. That that solved. So the like, some of it is solved by virtue of moving in this sweepstakes direction, and some of it is, I think, solved because we have just very smart people that have, I think, fixed like, really solved some of these problems that I'm not exactly sure why some of our competitors haven't been able to solve. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's a very challenging problem, and it requires, I think, very sort of delicate solutions in order to to navigate.

Andrew Pace [00:23:14]:

I think separately of of your product, just from what I've seen where I'm located, things can change quickly. Right? So I I do genuinely hope that there isn't any cracking down on the on this model because this is very pro player and very good for the industry to have this sort of competitive landscape. So, yeah, I really do hope that, this this works for you guys long term. I'll definitely be a supporter. Do you guys offer, live betting?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:23:44]:

Yeah. Yeah. We offer live betting. We have decent liquidity for live markets. Yeah. I think we basically are, like, aside from SGP's, which is a little bit more complicated, we have the ability to really offer, like, everything that you as a sharp bettor are probably looking for.

Andrew Pace [00:24:06]:

I mean, if you're since you reference sharp bettors, I know those those markets can be used to your advantage. But as a general statement, I don't think that, you not offering same game parlays is.

Shane Mercer [00:24:20]:

Yeah. I I don't think you're gonna upset too many sharp bettors with that one.

Andrew Pace [00:24:23]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the sportsbooks, they they hold those near and dear to their heart with the the hold that they have on them.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:24:31]:

So Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:24:31]:

So Alright, Shane. Shane. Oh, go ahead, Jake.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:24:33]:

Yeah. Well, just on that, like, when we do roll out parlays, the idea is to really have, like, very small hold in those markets. Right? And so if you think about the industry average hold as, let's say, 8 or 9%, our average hold will be about 2 a half or 3% in our markets. But in the parlays, like, if you're doing a price comparison of parlays, I think, like, on let's say 3 like parlay, it's probably gonna be something like 6% or a 5% compared to, like, 15 or 20%. So I think that's Right. There's actually a lot of room to educate users. Maybe you're not that price sensitive at the margins of, like, betting, you know, the difference between minus 104 and minus 110. But if you you're you're saying on your $10 parlay, FanDuel is offering you, you know, $6,000 and we're offering you $9,000.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:25:22]:

I think, you know, that is, I think, a big area where you can get people to care about price difference.

Andrew Pace [00:25:28]:

Totally. Totally. I think that that's super important. I think sometimes people replace convenience for, like, the most basic of of mathematics and the lack of education there and the laziness in the in the industry is sometimes just shocking to me. Like, if you told me that I'm gonna make some, you know, expected loss parlay today, but if I spend just a couple of minutes placing it over here instead of here, I could win, you know, potentially 10 or 20% more. Here in this example, you said 6000 to 9000, so 50% more. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go make that change, but it's crazy how how lazy the industry can be with that kind of stuff. But it it it matters, and it matters so much in the grand scheme of just losing less.

Andrew Pace [00:26:17]:

If you're doing this for entertainment, you know that we keep referencing Sharp Bettors. You're doing this for entertainment. Wouldn't you wanna lose less? You know?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:26:25]:

So Yeah. No. I completely agree. But I I do think I think that's a totally fair point. But I push back a little and say, you know, I think you have to remind yourself that people are primarily playing to have fun. Right? And Yeah. You're not able to solve the convenience and user experience things so that it's, you know, as easy to use, as fun, as sleek, as sexy, then, you know, there are lots of people that just don't care about a slight price improvement. Even I you know, I I'm just talking with a couple of my investors who bet on sports and they just use FanDuel and they say, you know, you have, like, you know, x company, like, available in your state.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:26:57]:

Like and they're like, yeah. Whatever. I don't I don't really care. Like, I know it's better for me, but like, if they if and if they're investing in that big and they can't even bother to download some other app, then, like, you know, you just have to remind yourself. And this is something that we as a company

Andrew Pace [00:27:11]:

Yeah. You you gotta you have to say to them, like, you are the problem. You are the reason we are like, this is we need you to understand the product you've invested in. And if you don't understand that, then, you know, what's the point? Like, you you're like, you have to go go place your bet at this other sports book just to prove our concept to a certain extent.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:27:35]:

Totally. But I I think my point is that, like, there's two sides of that. 1 is, okay, we gotta educate people so they understand, like, they are the problem. They should be doing a better job, you know, instead of giving away comp giving away money. But on the others on the on the flip side of that, like, within the company, we always try to remind ourself, like, we're not just building for Sharp Bettors. Like, Sharp Bettors are okay with a little inconvenience. They're probably gonna come to us regardless. And so most of our efforts are like, how do we make this app as sleek and seamless as possible? So someone who just doesn't give a shit about price will still bet on Novig.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:28:08]:

Right? And if we're able to do that, then we're gonna be able to get more casual money on the platform, which will make it more attractive for sharp bettors. We'll have you know, ultimately, we don't want just a sort of toxic pool of Sharp Bettors, you know Yeah. Competing head to head. We want a sort of a vibrant sort of diverse, user base, and that's why, like, a lot of our marketing effort is really targeted towards people that maybe are attracted to us for more of, like, the social aspect or the, you know, transparency. We show, like, multiple levels of the order book, and they're, like, very interested in some of the you know, we aggregate positions in in cool ways so you can have, like, a portfolio that resembles a traditional, Fintech app. So we're trying to do lots of things that are you know, where we compete not just on price. But, yeah, obviously, we need people to start caring a little bit more about price, which I think they are. Like, you know, the percentage of people today, just even in my own life, who are line shopping, who are using apps like PickIt and OddsJem and and, you know, similar tools to, you know, compare different prices, I think it's, you know, it's gone up probably by 3 or 4 fold.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:29:16]:

So I think I'm very encouraged by the state of the market, and I think there's strong demand for what we're building.

Shane Mercer [00:29:23]:

Wow. It it's it's very cool. Now I wanna ask though a little bit about more about how how you're operating because you are a start up, and you're you're telling me that you're up. You're offering all of these different markets. And in many ways, you're both exchange and sharp book at the same time. And I just want to ask, like, how many people are working at this startup? How are you going to keep up with all of the sharp action that's gonna come in?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:29:51]:

Yeah. We have 11 people, at the company.

Shane Mercer [00:29:55]:

11?

Shane Mercer [00:29:57]:

You guys working around the clock? It's fine.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:29:58]:

I just went from 9 to 11, last week, actually. You know, I think it's it's about, you know, working smart, not working hard. I think, like, we have figured, you know, like and I don't want to, like, overstate the, you know, how brilliant our team is or say that it, like, has come to us so easily. I think, you know, we've tried a lot of things that haven't worked so well and, are always trying to improve our operations. But I think there is this sort of myth that the larger your team is, the more successful you are. I think, you know, we did work with some overseas developers for a little and with some contractors, and, our team was a little bit bigger at one point. And I I think we've realized that, you know, having a lean team actually has enabled us to do more, to move faster as long as their people you know, it's like we we'd like to say we'd rather have a team of 10 who are all 8 players rather than a team of 50 or a 100 that are b and c players. So, yeah, we have a very high bar for who we bring on to the team.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:30:53]:

We just hired 2 people. I think we had over a 1000 people apply for those 2 roles. And, yeah, I think, you know, we're all in person, which I think helps a lot in terms of just productivity. You know, we've had some users, for example, say, like, oh, you should build this feature, and we've built it and then implemented it into the app within 72 hours. And I think there are very few other companies, especially in this industry, that can say something similar. You know, just really trying to be incredibly responsive to our users, having this sense of, like, this is really a community focused approach. I didn't even say this in the origin story, but the idea really came to me when as a part of all of these networks of sharp bettors on, like, Discord, Telegram, Signal, just people betting against each other and say, oh, I wanna bet 2,000 at, you know, 53% on the the Red Sox tonight. And someone else would say, oh, I'll take, you know, 1400 of that or whatever it is.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:31:47]:

And was like, okay. This is just a low tech exchange, and it's working incredibly well. And that's, you know, how that's when the idea came to me of, like, we should just formalize this. But, anyway, yeah, I think it's it's all to say that we're really trying to build a product, like, 4 sharps, like, Bisharps, and sort of alongside that also trying to build a product that can compete you know, can attract sort of more casual users as well. But, yeah, to answer your question, like, I think we just, don't don't waste time. There's very little bullshit in the company, and people just, you know, get their jobs done.

Shane Mercer [00:32:26]:

Yeah. I can appreciate that, you know, you have you have really, you know, high talent and and super smart people working there. But, you know, here's here's I just want to sort of give you an example. We had Adam Bjorn on the show a few weeks back. Another great episode for everybody out there who hasn't listened to to go back and have a listen to. And here's a guy who's who's built, he he spent his whole life betting on sports, and now he's the CEO of a company called Planetech. I I don't know how familiar you are with him or or his company. But one of the things that he.

Andrew Pace [00:32:54]:

He did. Jacob did mention Bet Chris earlier. He.

Shane Mercer [00:32:57]:

Oh, you did, right? That's right.

Andrew Pace [00:32:58]:

Yeah. For Bet Chris. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:33:00]:

Right. So so Jacob, you're obviously familiar with him then. He sort of talked about how he would go and hit up books in the middle of the night because he knew that their trading team only had 1 person working at the time and, you know, he would hammer lines and sort of take advantage of the lack of manpower at specific books. You know, how do you you know, what happens when you get 20,000 you open up in 43 states and you have 20,000 sharp bettors hammering your lines overnight.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:33:33]:

Yeah. It's a great question. So first of all, I would just invite any of your users. I mean, any of your listeners that, you know, just download our app and and try beating us. I think, you know, there's, I think there's very I

Shane Mercer [00:33:44]:

love it. Challenge accepted, I think.

Andrew Pace [00:33:48]:

Oh, I love it. That's such a great start. I love it.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:33:51]:

Like, what our our main ads actually are, like, showing what percentage of users are profitable on Novig compared to, other apps, and it's, like, 43% on Novig compared to 3%, on other apps. So, you know, I think it is a place where winners play, where winners bet. To answer your question, we've really, we've made a lot of our trading algorithmic. So we don't actually it's it's very little is actually manual. Of course, there's some stuff that's manual. Like, if there's you know, I well, whatever. I can't say exactly what. But, you know, we have eyeballs on the system at all times, but I think, like, and I really respect the Planet Tech people and and, you know, anyone who's really trying to build a better version of what's out there because I think there's just so much room for innovation.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:34:36]:

So I I really respect that. I don't want the I mean, I don't want to come across as, you know, throwing shade at any of these people, but I think there there are lots of people that just think of like, you know, my my cofounder, Colette, she likes to say, like, sports betting feels like Wall Street in the seventies where, like, it used to be a lot of, like, over the counter trading whereas, like, manual people running from one room to the other and a lot of you know? And then just, like, slowly became more financialized, like, they're you know, all of this was really, you know, just tech could do a lot of what is done manually in this industry. So even aside from, like, all the exchange stuff, I think we're really trying to be at the forefront of really automating just a, you know, much sharper, much more efficient, much more responsive sports book so that we don't have these problems of, you know, just having these, like, dumb college kids as traders who you know, on the overnight shift that can get beaten.

Andrew Pace [00:35:30]:

Well, I think too, Shane, just one thing on that point is, like, he is to an extent referencing the past. Right? Which now, obviously, from a technological standpoint, you know, things things have changed. And you Jacob, you don't need to throw shade at anyone. You know, you're starting a company that you should be proud of what it is that you've done. So, like, I kinda want you to throw shade a little bit. Like, shoot at take a shot at the industry. Like, what what was your point there?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:35:58]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I've I don't shy away from, you know, throwing shots at people in the industry. You know, some of those guys, not well, whatever. I mean, people If I'm just just

Andrew Pace [00:36:10]:

let it rip, man. We're we're here to talk.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:36:12]:

Well, I mean, some of those the those guys, have frustrated us saying, like, oh, we're not like these, you know, these naive Harvard kids that think they could, like, reinvent this industry without having worked in the industry before. You know, I think, like, I get that point, but I think that there's value in coming with a fresh set of eyes, having more experience from the world of prediction markets and financial markets. With a deep understanding of sports, like I'm a sports fanatic. You I think it's a shame that so many people lose their love of sports as they get more into sports betting. But anyway, it's all to say that, you know, I think there are a lot of people that, you know, you're gonna look back on them and they're just gonna be very embarrassed by a lot of their takes about the industry and, you know, yeah. I don't I don't I don't wanna say, hey. There's no disrespect at all, but I I just strongly believe in the model that we're building and, you know

Andrew Pace [00:37:03]:

I mean, in in the industry aside, you know, if you look back over the course of time, you know, disrupt disruptors that come in and and do make a wave, you know, there's they're gonna be able to pinpoint times when when people, you know, said that they couldn't do it or when people ignored, you know, whatever advice or strategy it was that they were going forward with because they didn't think that that was, like, the way it was done. Right? So, like, to the to the degree that like well, just let me finish really quickly here. To the to the degree that you guys are successful, is is is yet to be seen. Right? So it's like, you know, I I if if you're pro player, we're gonna be sitting in your corner rooting for you. And if if you're kinda old school and you're not you're not open to someone trying something new in the industry, I don't I don't like that. Right? So, like, you know, you you you gotta you gotta let people come in and take their shot. And, like, at the end of the day, if you guys fail, define fail, I always I don't believe in in that word in a lot of cases, but freaking got Joe Montana to invest in your company. Like, say whatever you want.

Andrew Pace [00:38:11]:

Like, that's freaking cool. I know you I know that's just step 1, but, like Yeah.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:38:15]:

No. I I really appreciate that. Thanks for saying that base. And I I think yeah. Like, you know, I I sometimes not that I I'm, like, that old and seasoned or whatever, but I sometimes advise early start ups and, you know, I think anyone that and sometimes I'm presented with very shitty ideas, but, like, I always encourage people to do their best. You know, I try to, like, guide them in the right direction, but, you know, I I I think there's very few things that I find more objectionable than people who are just, you know, criticizing people that are trying their best to, you know, improve the the user experience for players. Just to go back briefly to what what you're saying. Like, I think that it's true that a lot has been automated in the industry, and it's, you know, there has been some, innovation.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:39:00]:

But on the whole, like, as long as you have the ability to limit or ban anyone that's making money off of you, It's just not really worth your your time and effort to make these markets super hyper efficient. Right? Because, like, you could like, if you can just hire traders for $40,000 a year to do this manually, like, why would you invest $2,000,000 into automating x, y, and z? And so, like, that's I really do still think that there's so much innovation that has to happen in this industry, which I think is inevitable. It might not necessarily be us. I mean, I do think it will be us that that does this, but, like, I it there's no way that the the industry looks as it does a decade from now.

Andrew Pace [00:39:44]:

Yeah. And I I think, like, to that point, like, this is obviously a separate discussion. It's one that comes up on this podcast, like, over and over and over again. But, you know, obviously, close to close to home for you, not New York. I know you're in New York now, but close to close to home in Harvard there, Havard, is the the the Massachusetts, you know, trying to to figure out why players are being limited and what the process is and then none of the sportsbooks showing up for for that whole thing. And, you know, I I don't think they showed up because all the other states coulda watched it because it's a public hearing in Massachusetts, where then all the other states can fall like dominoes or you know, and and really create a problem for the sports book books. The the the the industry is at the beginning of regulation, and the pro player movement online right now is is pretty powerful. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on there on a regular basis where, you know, major eyeballs are being exposed to some of the practices that that are that are occurring.

Andrew Pace [00:40:45]:

So you have to ask yourself the question like, okay. At what point do the regulators get involved with some of these books and some of their practices and the things that are going on? And then separately of that, at what point do the sportsbooks realize that the current model isn't gonna be sustainable for the long term, where they're gonna have to make some adjustments. And that's where when you have competition in the marketplace of sportsbooks like yourselves that come in and say, hey. We're gonna do it this way, or at least we're gonna try. At a bare minimum, and this is where I say define the word fail, at a bare minimum, you're gonna sharpen, the acts of the industry where they go, oh, shit. These guys are making some waves and some ripples. What are they doing that we can now, you know, put into practice? And this is separately from sports sports betting entirely. But I'll never forget the day when I opened up stories on Instagram.

Andrew Pace [00:41:41]:

And I was like, holy shit. They copied Snapchat, and now Snapchat's, like, does almost doesn't even exist. Meanwhile you know? So, like, you know, iron sharpens iron. It's like at at a bare minimum, you know, if you guys do make waves in the industry, you're gonna better the industry by making sportsbooks change some of the things that that they're gonna need to do to succeed if you guys have any level of success. And that alone is a huge a huge thing to to be able to accomplish.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:42:10]:

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree.

Shane Mercer [00:42:15]:

Well, Jacob, this has been awesome having you on. What a great, conversation, and, I love I think, you know, you know, both pace and I absolutely love what you're trying to accomplish with Novig and, know, look forward to seeing it play out. If people wanna connect with you, they wanna follow you, they wanna get more involved with Novig. They wanna find out more about it. What can they do? Where do they go?

Jacob Fortinsky [00:42:36]:

Yeah. For sure. So first of all, I'd say, sign up for our wait list on our website if you're based in the US, or elsewhere, novig.us. And you can follow me on on Twitter, j__fort, or novig_app. I also host a podcast where we have lots of other conversations similar to this, called Minecraft. And you can follow novig on TikTok and Instagram as well. You can reach out to me personally at jacob@novig.co. I'm pretty responsive if you have any ideas or whatever it is.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:43:11]:

You know, always love talking to people in the community. And, yeah, we also have a discord which is especially when we're live is a lot of fun. So, sort of like a group chat with all of your buddies betting on sports against each other, but with a couple thousand or

Andrew Pace [00:43:27]:

Against each other. I love that.

Shane Mercer [00:43:31]:

We we have a similar thing at inplayLIVE, but we bet with each other. Yeah.

Jacob Fortinsky [00:43:36]:

Yeah. Sure. Alright. Well, yeah, this is a lot of fun and, thanks for having me on.

Shane Mercer [00:43:42]:

Hey. Really, really glad to have you, Jacob. Let's stay in touch, and we'd love to have you back on the show at some point, maybe a year from now, and we'll see where where you guys are at and if whether or not you're you're coming to Canada, because because we would definitely love to. That's all I care about at this point. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:43:55]:

If you didn't notice, this show's public. But at the same time, Shane's just really trying to get you guys to come to

Jacob Fortinsky [00:44:00]:

take care of that. I'm a I'm a big Cavs fan, so I'll plug that.

Shane Mercer [00:44:04]:

Oh, you don't have to plug that. No. You you could keep that to yourself.

Andrew Pace [00:44:07]:

There you go.

Shane Mercer [00:44:07]:

You can. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:44:08]:

There you go. Alright. I love it.

Shane Mercer [00:44:10]:

Alright, Jacob. Thanks again for for coming out of the show. To Jacob, to paste all the sports bettors around the world till next week. Keep beating those books. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below.

Shane Mercer [00:44:32]:

And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.