Episode 71

Andrew Pace [00:00:00]:

To release your bonus as cash, all you need to do is wager 180,000 dollars. Like, are you freaking kidding me?

Shane Mercer [00:00:24]:

Hello and welcome to Behind the Lines, the only podcast purifying the sports betting industry. Remember to like, download, subscribe, and follow us on all the socials at inplayLIVE. On today's show, is Canada primed for a match fixing scandal? And the creator of dark horse odds, what is it, and can it help you build a bankroll? I'm your host, Shane Mercer, as always joined by Andrew Pace, founder of inplayLIVE, a community of like minded sports bettors dedicated to long term success. We have Mike McConnell, cofounder from Dark Horse Odds joining us in a bit, but first, I wanna get to a pretty big story from front office sports. So the headline here, pace. Oh, no, Canada. The next big sports betting scandal could erupt north of the border. When I saw this, I was like, wow.

Shane Mercer [00:01:12]:

This is a this is a pretty sort of bold claim here, and it's from a a very sort of reputable publication, front office sports. I mean, they do a lot of great work covering, all things the business of sports and sports betting, very much a part of that sort of ecosystem now. So this article makes a point that Canada doesn't actually have any laws on the books that specifically address match fixing. So it brings up section 209 of Canada's, criminal code, which does state that cheating while playing a game or betting with intent to defraud someone are indictable offenses. But this this piece of legislation, this law was written before legalized sports betting was was, you know, swept across the country and across the entire, continent. And at least one lawyer says updates are needed. And so I thought that that was pretty interesting, but then it also quotes a guy named Declan Hill. And if you aren't familiar with him, he wrote a a book about match fixing in international soccer.

Shane Mercer [00:02:13]:

It it was probably written about 15 years ago, but it was a huge, huge book when it came out. And, he's one of the more vocal critics in the Russian doping scandal. He is one of the top global experts on match fixing and corruption in sports. In fact, I don't think that there is probably a bigger authority out there on the topic of corruption in sports than than this guy, Declan Hill. And, he also just happens to be a Canadian. And so when I when I see him comment on something like this, yeah, I I take it, you know, I take it very seriously. I I I pulled a lot a lot of weight in in what he says in this space. And so one of his quotes in the article is that it's open season for max fit for match fixing up there, referring to us in Canada.

Shane Mercer [00:03:02]:

And, I just thought, wow. You know, you hear a guy, like, say that that it that it's open season, and, I mean, he he knows it to be true. It's not something that he just thinks. He he does extensive research in this space, And to to the point where he monitors, like, all sorts of small leagues or what we might consider small leagues around the world to see things like, you know, strange odd, line movements and strange odds and and sort of stuff that just doesn't make sense in the betting space. And so when I saw him say that, I thought, wow. This is this is, pretty remarkable. But but, Pace, you had to look at the article. What do you think?

Andrew Pace [00:03:45]:

Yeah. It's it's I hate stuff like this. Like, I hate even talking about it, to be honest with you. And and one of the reasons is because it fuels all the degenerate gamblers to have an excuse for why they lost a bet or why something happened the way it happened. You know, you see these clips in the NFL, and I know we're referencing Canada with this article. But you see these clips in the NFL of, like, a dude who just misses a tackle and then, like, in slow motion, it'll be viral on Instagram. And it's like, are you telling me that, you know, this game wasn't fixed because know, this dude missed this tackle or something like that. And I just, I hate it.

Andrew Pace [00:04:23]:

Fuel so many people's, you know, beliefs on a game. An entire fan base behind a certain team will will claim, you know, that something was fixed as opposed to just losing fair fair and square a lot of times. So, like, I just I hate the whole conversation. Now, I guess with that out of the way, and let's just kinda take your word here, you know, this is this is the guy we ought to trust and believe that what he's saying is is to an extent to be true. The other side of this discussion is that it is happening, and it has been happening for, you know, however long, quite a long time, I think since the dawn of of sports, really, especially if you can bet on them. You know, Shoeless Joe Jackson, the list goes on and on. So it is happening. And, you know, where does where does that put us? Now, when I read the article, we've had a recent, situation with CFL, and I just said talked about, I hate to generate gamblers blaming someone else for a loss.

Andrew Pace [00:05:24]:

I've never seen anything in my life like what I saw in that CFL game, and it was an accidental pass interference call instead of an actual pass interference call. And when the ref called the penalty after that, he called back to back penalties that really really fucked us over in this game. He was laughing while he made the call. Like, he started smiling and then broke out laughing. I just have never seen an intentional pass interference. I shouldn't say never, but, you know, and I watched it all go down, and I I never ever am the guy that says, this is rigged, this is corrupt. And when I watched it, I'm, like, what the fuck is happening right now? This feels wrong. Like, this feels like there are other things at play, and I never say that.

Andrew Pace [00:06:17]:

So I'm not trying to make this exact case validation of that article, because I can't prove anything. But, yeah, all I can really say is it it was a weird series of events. And, you know, when you when you reference the CFL specifically, which the article clearly does, there's probably a lot more motivation in a league where people don't make as much money. You know, sometimes when you look at like the Calvin Ridley parlors, you're like, why would he do that? You know, he's betting a couple of $100, doesn't he know he's not allowed to? That's stupid. Right? He makes a great salary, has a great great career ahead of him. Why would he jeopardize it? Right? And it probably is innocent and dumb when something like that happens despite the the, I guess, the the the the sentence that he had to to pay for what he did. Right? And then, you know, obviously, the Ohtani things come up here a couple of times. With the CFL, you go, okay, you got some guys here that are making, like, low 6 figures high to, high 5 figures in in their salary.

Andrew Pace [00:07:22]:

You know? So that that's a league that could have, you know, greater exposure to a motivation from anyone on that field, the players, the refs, all that kind of thing. I'm not saying it's happening. I don't know. I'm just saying that that it is a high possibility, when those motivations are gonna be a little bit more obvious to a player like that. You know, he can make potentially 10 years salary by throwing a game depending on who it is that it's working with and dealing with. So, yeah. I mean, that's really all I have to say about it. It sucks.

Andrew Pace [00:07:54]:

You know, you want the integrity of the game to to be as simple as everyone wanted to go out there and win. But as we know in sports, whether it's long travel, whether it's difficult stuff in your personal life, whatever it is, there's simply every single game is probably someone in team sports that doesn't wanna be there that day. You know, that especially in in a regular season game, You know, it could be anything from, you know, being too hot, being injured, being sore, being in a bad time zone, not getting a good sleep, like, the list goes on and on. So other motivations regardless of of, potential game fixing of any kind are are always at play, with these sports. So, yeah. I mean and and remember the legislature before Canada legalized single game sports betting online? It was written in 1960. So it's like, you're telling me now that these guys can get away with this up here and the legislation hasn't followed suit with the online gambling? Like, come on. You know?

Shane Mercer [00:08:52]:

It's you know, that's just a classic sort of government thing, and I think it takes place in in, you know, countries around the world where it just takes lawmakers that much longer to catch up, you know, in terms of, sort of filling the the legislative gaps that are going to exist. You know, I'm glad you brought up the the CFL situation, though, because I think the CFL is one of those leagues that, that a guy like Declan Hill might consider to be, like, a prime target league because it is a smaller league. Right? And, you know, the players, like you mentioned, aren't paid that much and much more easier to influence in that sense. So he works for, the University of New Haven, and they have this, this sort of organization there that sort of tracks things. And, so from May 31st to July 2nd, they flagged matches being played around the world where they where, quote, bizarre odd movements triggered alarms. So they have a whole system, and it alerts them to when they see things that just don't look right. And so that included games in the US, but it all and Canada, but it also included games in Russia and China and Brazil. You know? And I know that many people in the inplayLIVE community and and probably bettors outside of the inplayLIVE community will place wagers on these sort of smaller, more regional leagues or or leagues that, you know, like like the Chinese Basketball League, for example.

Shane Mercer [00:10:15]:

That's a great example of one that'll sort of kick up again in in a little bit. But even like soccer. Right? Soccer leagues are sort of across across the world and that kind of thing. And, you know, so it it also encompasses other major sports like tennis and basketball, volleyball, cricket, table tennis. And Hill's also warning that this may be spilling into women's sports specifically, and and we're sort of seeing a rise in especially in in basketball, women's basketball. But, you know, women's sports are on the rise, but, again, they don't get paid the same. Right? And it's kind of that whole aspect of things where, you know, they might be easier to influence. Here here's a quote, though, from him in this.

Shane Mercer [00:10:50]:

You know, there are tons of big events which are being fixed, especially now. Lately, the trend is very huge events in esports as well because there's no punishment. You can just fix and not get punished. And I think that's the most interesting thing is that, you know, again, the laws just haven't caught up to it. You know, the article also referenced the whole John t Porter thing, as as sort of, you know, what John t Porter did was wrong in terms of the league's eyes, but there was actually he didn't actually break any Canadian laws by telling people that, you know, he was going to be doing what he did. So, yeah, you know, lawmakers are gonna have to step up and and close these sort of loopholes. And and I think that, you know, while, you know, articles like this do, get the conspiracy theorists out there, you know, sort of chomping at the bit, and and, you know, you creating excuses for all sorts of things that happen in professional sports as, oh, it was fixed. Oh, you know, Vegas called it in and all that stuff, which I agree, PACE.

Shane Mercer [00:11:56]:

It really does kind of get on my nerves after a while, especially when we're talking about, really big events and things that maybe, you know, were clearly that was clearly not the case. At the same time, it is happening, and and, I think we we need to sort of be aware of it. And, Yeah. It's, it's it's, yeah, it's just such a negative aspect of of this, this whole sports betting realm. But it like you said, it's been happening since, probably since the dawn of sports, and, you know, it it's up to organizations and people like Hill to sort of call it out and and try to stamp it out, as much as they can. So I'm I'm sort of glad when I see it covered from that aspect.

Andrew Pace [00:12:42]:

Yeah. Well, I think it's a the you know, you're talking about the NBA with Jontay Porter. The NBA is the, like, the leagues who employ the players, their contracts associated with this stuff, and the the punishment does need to be severe. You know, kicked out of league. Yep. The you know, you you name it. There's nothing that you couldn't throw throw at them from that standpoint in my opinion. The sportsbooks themselves, you know, this is where some sort of, patterns, limitations, whatever the case may be, that they really could help in this, in this space.

Andrew Pace [00:13:18]:

I don't trust them too. But, you know, and I could see them using whatever they they did in that arena on other people that are placing legitimate wagers. So I I I can't trust them to do that, but the sportsbooks certainly could get involved. And, of course, the regulators and then government law, yeah, definitely has to has to step in. And even with all that, it'll still continue. It's just that at least you know that, responsible parties when caught would be, you know, needed to serve some sort of punishment that that fit the crime. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:13:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I encourage everyone out there to go and have a full read of the article. You know, Payson and I sort of only skimmed the surface of it, but but, front office sports, I mentioned the title at the top of the show. Go check it out if you have a chance. It's worth it's worth a read at least and and something to kind of think about and and consider. Alright.

Shane Mercer [00:14:11]:

Well, with that, pace, we've got a guest on the show. Without further ado, let's head over to that interview. Alright. Mike McConnell is the cofounder of Dark Horse Odds. Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike McConnell [00:14:26]:

Hey. Thanks for having me. Happy to join.

Shane Mercer [00:14:29]:

Hey. Real really happy to have you on here. I I took a look at at your product, and it's pretty interesting. But, why don't you sort of give us the the dark horse origin story? Tell us a little bit about why you wanted, to create this company and and, what it does.

Mike McConnell [00:14:45]:

Yeah. So Dark Horse Odds is a match betting software company. So, essentially, we go out and we comb through all the available, sportsbooks, get their odds as well as the promotions. And then our users say, hey. I have x promotion on live sportsbook. How can I turn that into a guaranteed profit? Right? Which sounds fake. So it might be better to start off with what is matched betting? So matched betting is a way to, convert Sportsbook promotions into guaranteed profit. Right? You can do this by placing a promotion, say, on FanDuel, and then you hedge the opposite opposite side of the bet on DraftKings.

Mike McConnell [00:15:18]:

In sporting events, you can choose bets where there's only 2 possible outcomes. Right? The home team wins and the away team wins. So by placing bets on both sides of that, you can guarantee a profit. So how do I get started with all of this? Essentially, it was when sports started to come back during, late late summer, early fall in 2020 after COVID. I was trying to look up profitable betting strategies. I was pretty surprised to find that most bettors are not profitable. Right? And it's for a whole variety of reasons. I did some across a subreddit, our sports book, where a lot of individuals were going through they didn't necessarily use the term matched betting.

Mike McConnell [00:15:54]:

They figured out a way to, you know, do this hedge their promotions and guarantee a profit. At the time, it was extremely manual. We had to do it by hand, come through all the odds. Some people had Excel sheets. That would help a little bit, but nothing that really put all those tools together. So I was talking with some friends and family and realized, hey. We we can automate this. We can make a much better service than there is currently available out there.

Mike McConnell [00:16:14]:

So we went and then eventually turned into Dark Horse Ads, and now we you know, subscription based website, you can get $39 a month access to all of our tools. And as fake as it sounds, guarantee a profit from, sportsbooks promotions.

Shane Mercer [00:16:27]:

You know, it sounds a lot like, maybe what, well, what Pace and I might have referred to as bonus harvesting, which is

Mike McConnell [00:16:34]:

Yeah. It's just another another name for it. Same thing.

Shane Mercer [00:16:37]:

Right. Same idea. So, I guess, how does your, platform help people do this?

Mike McConnell [00:16:45]:

Yep. So the a user will come in and say, let's say, I have a $100 bonus bet on FanDuel. So they'll open up our bet finders. Right? And we have ones with all different types of promotions. So they'll use the bonus bet bet finder. They'll choose their sportsbook, FanDuel, and they enter in their dollar amount. And then, they will also, in user settings, select all the other sportsbooks that they belong to. So then we'll go through all the possible combinations.

Mike McConnell [00:17:09]:

You know, it could be, you know, at times, it's, you know, several 100000 combinations. And then we'll say, hey. This is the most profitable one. But even in addition to that, we also allow extensive filtering. Because a lot of times, the most profitable bet will be on some obscure alternate player prop for, you know, a a player that you've never heard of, you know, over 5a half threes. Right? And this guy never ever takes a 3 in the NBA. So the odds are, like, plus 1400. Right? So then we can filter it out and say, hey.

Mike McConnell [00:17:37]:

If you place a bunch of those bets, users are gonna get limited. So only show me main lines. Or maybe this bet only applies to a certain team in the NBA or a certain date or time frame. So we have filters for all of that. So you can narrow it down to the exact bet you need, and then we'll tell you how much to bet on that side as well as the hedge so you can guarantee the same profit no matter what happens in the event. Right? So we do all the searching and all the math for you. You simply say I have this bet or this promotion on this sports book. We say, alright.

Mike McConnell [00:18:08]:

Place that one and then hedge with this one to x number of dollars, and then you're good. You don't even have to watch the game if you don't want to.

Shane Mercer [00:18:16]:

It sounds it sounds very helpful, especially if people are sort of actively trying to to do this kind of thing, bonus harvesting or match betting as you kind of, coined it. I guess, what kind of money have you made doing this? What kind of money are people who are using your service making?

Mike McConnell [00:18:32]:

Yep. So the there's gonna be 2 factors that determine that primarily. 1 is gonna be the state you live in, because if you live in Connecticut, you've got, like, 3 sportsbooks. If you live in New Jersey or live in Colorado, you've got 20 plus. Right? So that can make a pretty big difference. But if we just talk about just the sign up offers to get started, in most states going through the sign up offers, you're gonna make somewhere between $27. Again, it's gonna vary what books are available. Promotions kinda cycle up and down a little bit.

Mike McConnell [00:19:00]:

We're in the slower season with just MLB right now. That'll likely increase come late August when the NFL starts to turn around. Right? So, that's, you know, factor number 1. Factor number 2 is your bankroll. Right? So if you have a smaller bankroll, it's gonna take longer to get through all the promotions, especially the sign up offers, because you're gonna wanna max those out. Those are just one time offers. But if you have a large enough bankroll, you can actually start doing some kind of manufactured spending, to generate a large amount of handle on these sportsbooks and then get targeted VIP offers. Right? So Betrivers is one of the easiest to think about.

Mike McConnell [00:19:36]:

They have a very, very structured VIP program. Once you reach level 7, then you, get access to the VIP calendar, which is every month it cycles through. So they publish the whole thing ahead of time. It's it's very structured. So to get to level 7, you've gotta bet $33,000 a month, which sounds like a lot, but you can do that at less than a 1% loss by sticking to main lines. So you're gonna lose a couple $100, and then you qualify for the VIP calendar. And when you hedge those promotions, it it varies per month, but you can normally make 2 grand plus. Right? So it's a net profit of $1700 or more.

Mike McConnell [00:20:15]:

Right? But all those bets you're placing on Betrivers, you hedge on DraftKings, you hedge on FanDuel, you hedge on Caesars and MGM. They see that you're placing large bets, so they give you a targeted offer. Right? Then you hedge that one on another sports book and it becomes a positive feedback loop. The biggest thing is just trying to avoid limits. But if you're smart about it, you can avoid limits for a very, very long time, if not indefinitely, and and make some pretty serious income. So there's users that clear, you know, the the exception to the rules is users that clear well over $10,000 a month, but they have a large starting bankroll. I realize the average person probably doesn't have that. But I would argue it's pretty easy to make a few $100 a month even with a small bankroll just based on the daily offers.

Mike McConnell [00:20:57]:

Right? So if you play blackjack or whatever at a regular casino or physical casino, you play enough there. You're gonna get comped rooms. You're gonna get some promotions to try and draw you back in. Well, sportsbooks do the same thing every day. They want you to open the app. They want you to place bets because that's how they make money. So they send out offers on a regular basis to pull you in. Not all of them can be hedge.

Mike McConnell [00:21:17]:

Many of them can be, and then you can just turn through them over and over and build your status over time and build your profit over time.

Shane Mercer [00:21:25]:

I just wonder and it seems fantastic if you're somebody with a a small bankroll or you're just getting started in the sports betting world and you wanna build a bankroll. But I I'm wondering, like, what happens you know, you brought up the topic of limiting. What happens when you do get eliminated? What happens when you start to run out of promotions?

Mike McConnell [00:21:42]:

Yep. So that's if you do get limited, chances are on that particular sports book, your profit's probably done from them. Right? That's why it's very, very important to avoid those. And there's a couple of key things you can do. The biggest things are stick to main lines in in big markets. Right? But on the NBA, NBA money lines, bet the day of the event, bet within a few hours of the event. All of those things will make it less likely that you're gonna beat the closing line. Right? Which that means you're not gonna set off red flags for the sportsbooks, and therefore, more likely to extend the longevity of your account.

Mike McConnell [00:22:16]:

Right? So a lot of this goes, like, counter to EB betting. And the idea is that with matched betting, even if you're taking slightly smaller profit on each individual bet, being able to do it over and over and over will outweigh that that delta. Right? So then the back to the original question was was what can you do to limit it? What was the original question? I'm sorry.

Shane Mercer [00:22:38]:

Well well, what do you do when you start running out of promotions?

Mike McConnell [00:22:40]:

Yeah. What do you do when you start running out of promotions? That's where the manufactured spending comes in. You start to create your own. You start to go for the targeted offers. So the first thing anyone should do is go through all of the sign up offers in your state, and you should belong to every sportsbook in your state. Right? Different sportsbooks are gonna have different odds, which is gonna increase your profitability. It also increases the number of promotions that are available to you because each sportsbook's gonna have their own. So then, when you get into manufactured spending, that's, you know, placing a bet where you don't necessarily have a promotion on both sides, replacing a large bet at a small as loss as possible to drive targeted offers, right, to get access to that Betrivers VIP calendar, which while you're doing that, while you're generating that handle, is when DraftKings and all the other sportsbooks are gonna start to give you offers.

Mike McConnell [00:23:26]:

Again, if you have a large enough bankroll, you can just send an email to most of these sportsbooks. Say, hey. What can you do for a $10,000 deposit? Do you have a VIP program? A lot of them have VIP matches. If you're a VIP on BetRivers, send that information over to Caesars or somebody else. They're gonna status match. Right? So there's a little bit of a hustle involved in it. You you can keep pushing to maintain that status or reach it and then spread it across multiple sportsbooks. So you can you can generate your own offers.

Mike McConnell [00:23:53]:

I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize that.

Shane Mercer [00:23:56]:

Yeah. You know, it might be sort of a a somewhat, underrated aspect of the sports betting game, especially, early on. But is this sort of something that that you kind of see? Do do you have a a sports bettor target market here? I'm I'm thinking that, you know, just sort of having this conversation with you, to me, this seems like something that really could be beneficial to novice bettors, people just getting started. But but, you know, does it have much value for somebody who's been betting on sports for a long time already and might consider themselves a professional sports bettor?

Mike McConnell [00:24:30]:

Yeah. So if you're a professional sports bettor, then, you know, maybe match betting isn't exactly for you if you've proven to be profitable over a long period of time. And if you are, then you're in, like, the 4% of the population. I mean, that's not an exact number, but it's pretty close. Right? So if you're that itty bitty tiny market, well, then dark horse ads still has some pretty valuable tools just to help you shop for lines. Right? A lot of people will use Pinnacle as a baseline, right, the the sharpest sportsbook around. So there are tools you can compare FanDuel or whoever versus Pinnacle and say, alright. Do I have an edge here or not? Right? We don't have EV building, EV bedding built exactly in at this moment in time.

Mike McConnell [00:25:05]:

It's something we're potentially looking to in the future. So that you can still get value from that. Right? But if you're 95% of the population plus, then, yes, this is a great way to at least build your bankroll. And if you wanna dabble in other types of betting, you can do it with how you know, quote, unquote house money as opposed to your own by, you know, doing this match betting first to build your bankroll. So it absolutely appeals to most users. And I know I've seen you guys talk about it on your podcast before. Like, simply line shopping alone can make a tremendous difference. Right? We actually are in the process of doing an analysis recently.

Mike McConnell [00:25:39]:

And, like, you know, out of, like, popular sportsbooks, by popular, I mean, are in 10 plus states. Like, Fanatics is charging 4.7 big 4.7 percent big, you know, compared to, like, 2.25 on something like sports trade, where you're gonna get, you know or circa, where you're getting a much sharper, sharper line, and that's including commission for Sportrade. So even just that can have a huge difference by having some sort of odd service. This This is gonna take you forever to do manually. By the time you're done shopping through 15 different sportsbooks, the odds have moved anyway.

Shane Mercer [00:26:09]:

Yeah. Where do you see this company kind of fitting in the North American sports betting landscape? I mean, there's so many, you know, tools coming out, services coming out, platforms, out there to sort of help bettors become better or at least turn a turn a some kind of profit in this space. Where do you sort of see this spinning in?

Mike McConnell [00:26:30]:

Yep. So we very much view ourselves more along in, like, the side hustle community than strictly just betting or gambling. Right? Because the unique thing about this is since you're betting, yes, you're placing individual bets, but you're covering all outcomes of a sporting event that one of them is gonna win. And because you have the the odds staggered in such a way of promotion on one side, you're guaranteed a profit. So we don't view it, you know, as much as gambling. It's a traditional website or some other services out there. Much more match betting. It's a side hustle.

Mike McConnell [00:27:01]:

It's a way to make money. Are you gonna quit your day job because of this? Not really. There's actually some users that have, but that's the exception. I don't wanna make false promises out here. Chances are you're not going to. Right? But I can nearly guarantee that you're gonna make a few grand, you know, a per year, maybe $10 plus, which which is nice. I think most people would like to have that. But, you know, an additional $10 a year, you you're not gonna retire.

Mike McConnell [00:27:26]:

Right?

Shane Mercer [00:27:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. You're not quitting your day job. That that's for sure. Well, it sounds like you've got, you know, a a a sort of a nice business going on here. You know who, you know, it's helping and you're not overpromising anything. So, you know, kudos on on you guys to to sort of starting something in this space that, is sort of true to its word, I suppose, as opposed to some of the other things that we tend to see out there. Pace, anything for Mike?

Andrew Pace [00:27:52]:

Yeah. First thing I wanna say is, I think a lot of the things that you touched on, and I mean zero offense when I say this, are might be a little bit elementary for some of our listeners. But what I wanna say to that is how powerful that education is, that base level education that you're offering and that literally you just covered of simply entering the betting arena with it isn't even an eye for value, but it's an eye to win. So you set people on the path where you enter an arena where typically everyone loses. You set them on a path where they're geared mentally to now win, and they're only there to win. So I love that, and I love the education pieces that that you shared with us and that you're doing. So huge huge pat on the back for that. Now when it comes to some of the other stuff out there that would be similar to a product like this, what I really like about this is, you kinda mentioned, like, when you're line shopping or, you know, maybe you're doing some arbitrage betting or things like that, it is it it really is a race to market, and you're potentially racing against tens of thousands of people to get to that line.

Andrew Pace [00:28:59]:

What I like about this approach from the standpoint of a new, a person new to the space, they're not in a race. You're offering them profit based on a bonus, not based on a bad line. And I think just that that that way of of heading into it relieves that stress of being a part of that rat race to to to get this line that's available for sometimes a second. Right?

Mike McConnell [00:29:24]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:29:24]:

So I think that that's that's really cool. Yeah. And then from the standpoint of having a system for developing, relationships with the sportsbooks that can yield greater bonuses, and and then taking that approach where there is no gamble, there is no side that you're cheering for. It it it is a really good way for someone to enter the space. And I think that, you know, certainly the bonuses and what was going on in a few years ago, it was a lot crazier than it is today. But I still love that that approach. And I think that, limits aside, and I think what I'm about to say includes limits, but it it really is a free a free run up to your first $10,000 in profit betting. And and then, you know, if if the bonus harvesting itself or the match betting as you refer to it kinda dries up a little bit for some players.

Andrew Pace [00:30:16]:

I I think that is a natural next step for anyone that's doing this consistently and and and successfully over the long term. Obviously, you can continue to do it to an extent. It could be hard to scale. You know, there's a a lot of arguments there, but you've set them on the path of winning. And from what they do with that there, obviously, is up to them, but I think it's a great start. And, yeah, I really like what you guys are doing. So, well done with, you know, getting people getting people started on on the right foot.

Mike McConnell [00:30:47]:

Yeah. We've definitely had a, you know, large group of our users that, you know, that discovered this through one means or another. And since, you know, migrated and oftentimes migrated partially towards EV. Right? Like, hey. I have a smaller bonus bet. We'd like to, you know, do an EV bet on that. Right? 5, 10, 15, $25. That's gonna vary per individual based on their bankroll.

Mike McConnell [00:31:07]:

But if they have a larger sign up offer of $1,000, it's like, I'm not quite ready to risk that. I'd rather take the guaranteed 650, 700, whatever it is. Right? And, sure, in time, theoretically, EV is gonna end up having having, you know, a set value to it. But that's it's gonna be much easier to materialize with a larger sample size and if all the bets are roughly equal, which you can always control with, with a bonus that's handed to. Right? So there's all sorts of, you know, balancing acts you can do and combine the methods together, to make to make a substantial profit. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:31:44]:

Well, Mike, thanks for coming on the show. I think you guys have created something that a lot of, bettors would find useful, especially, like I said, new bettors and and people entering the space. It's almost like a a, you know, could be used as a bit of a launching pad to to really kick off a a sports betting career if people wanted to take it to that next level. And if they don't, hey. A 10 k a year side hustle ain't bad either.

Mike McConnell [00:32:06]:

No. It's not bad. Just for a couple minutes of work, honestly.

Andrew Pace [00:32:12]:

$10,000. But if you invest that $10,000 every single year,

Andrew Pace [00:32:16]:

you're gonna be way ahead of every everyone else. Way ahead. So

Shane Mercer [00:32:19]:

There you go. Alright. Mike McConnell, cofounder of Dark Horse Odds. Thanks for coming on the show, buddy.

Mike McConnell [00:32:25]:

Thanks for having me. Appreciate

Andrew Pace [00:32:27]:

it. Thanks, Mike.

Shane Mercer [00:32:32]:

Alright. So that was Mike McConnell in Dark horse odds. And, you know, pace, I think, you know, you do cover this in the master class as, as I think maybe you mentioned there, or and if not, that that's fine. But, you know, you do cover it in the masterclass. We call it bonus harvesting. He calls it match betting. You know, I think though that if you are new to this space, let's just say you're joining now in the summer or you're about to join and get ready for football and and, you know, you're excited for football season and you're just sort of wanting to kind of embark on your sports betting journey, that this could just be sort of, like, a a nice option to start off with, you know, and kind of help grow a bankroll really quickly from, you know, a $1,000 or even less than $1,000 and and and sort of ramp it up quickly to the 5,000, $10,000 range simply by, bonus harvesting, especially if you're in a province like mine, Ontario, where we have so many regulated sportsbooks that are competing for your action. They're offering all kinds of bonuses out there, and, you know, you haven't been limited yet or anything like that.

Shane Mercer [00:33:34]:

You know, you're you're you're just in a perfect spot to take advantage of of those, of those bonuses and promotions, that that Mike was referring to.

Andrew Pace [00:33:44]:

Totally. And I think a good message too because we kinda were referencing smaller bank roles and things like that. I've seen Kenny bonus harvest to this day with big bonus promote bonuses and promotions to the almost to the extent that Mike exactly described it. Like, a big deposit, emailing a host, seeing what they can do for him, seeing what kind of bonus can can be offered to him, and then him working through that bonus, to whatever degree it needs to be worked through, and turning it into cash. I've seen Kenny do it on a slot machine. I've seen him do it on a blackjack table. And to this day, he's still doing it with his sportsbooks. So if you're thinking like, oh, you know, this is for small bankrolls like we touched on, it is.

Andrew Pace [00:34:26]:

It's the quickest way to to catapult your bankroll. And to to give you the the same example I just referenced, Kenny is not even spinning out a unit, from his harvesting bonus harvesting, but he's not gonna complain about picking up $5,000 here and there. So he continues to do it as a result of that. I personally, I have a pretty good screenshot actually of some of the types of bonus harvesting that I've been recently offered. So I will try to bring this up, really quickly here. Okay. So here's an example of, the type of bonuses I've been offered recently, and this is why, you hear the message that Mike just shared. Obviously, great message for for someone who's, you know, looking to make some money sports betting.

Andrew Pace [00:35:13]:

And then, again, an example like Kenny, like I just gave. Well, here's one. Congratulations, Andrew. You're eligible to receive a $1500 bonus. This is from Northstar bets. Oh, sweet. That's the first thing I I read. Awesome.

Andrew Pace [00:35:27]:

Right? To release your bonus as cash, all you need to do is wager 1 $180,000. Like, are you freaking kidding me? But I'm actually gonna give Northstar a little bit of credit here, and this is why I'm gonna give them a little bit of credit. At least it says it right there. I I can read it. It's in the same, you know, the same image, the same pop up. It's right there in front of me. A lot of other sportsbooks that have ridiculous rollover, this is obscene, this rollover that they're offering me. It is outrageous.

Andrew Pace [00:36:05]:

And not only that, what's important to understand for a lot of sports bettors is you might go, hey, I'll just accept this bonus, and maybe I won't roll the money over, but that's okay because, I'm just gonna keep playing. And if I do, I do. But then you can't withdraw oftentimes. So they'll lock your funds into, your account where you can't do anything with them aside from bet until that $180,000 is clear, which for some people would just be impossible. But anyways, you might watch an episode like today and then accept your next bonus thinking that you're turning it into cash for free. So it's really important to look at the terms and conditions of your bonuses and make sure that you do have a, a smaller rollover. Now, I recently did a social media post on a on a bonus that I received from a sports book called Bet Whale, and the rollover for that was not easy. I think I got a $5,000, bonus that required a 10 x rollover.

Andrew Pace [00:37:05]:

So I needed to, wager $50,000. Now for me, that was a no brainer. I took it and I rolled it over quite quickly, but the point still stands. That doesn't mean I turned it into cash. Right? If you're making, wagers consistently that do have a positive expected value, and you're gonna be doing that anyways, then for me, that was just bonus money. But if I had to wager the $50,000 through and I wasn't making, you know, value bets of any kind, there's a good chance that I don't turn even any of it, into cash at the end. So when it comes to all these bonuses, you have to always ask yourself the question of why am I being offered this? What is the requirement for me to to play through this and to actually turn it into cash before you even consider any sort of strategy, of doing exactly that. So keep that in mind with all the bonuses that you're offered.

Andrew Pace [00:37:59]:

And and like Mike alluded to, there are some some sportsbooks that have a great, like, you just have to wager the bonus and it's that's it. Like, it's a one x rollover. So those bonuses are obviously the best of the best. And, yeah, just keep all that in mind when it when it comes to this stuff so that you are making, smart decisions. And and even those one x rollovers, you can ask yourself, well, why is the sports book offering this? And the reason why they do is to be competitive with their, you know, their other people the other businesses in the industry that are out for your business. If DraftKings is offering you $500, FanDuel might be like, oh my god, we have to match that or we have to kick it up to a 1,000 or whatever the case may be. So that's reason number 1. So it's to stay competitive.

Andrew Pace [00:38:39]:

And then reason number 2 is to get you playing. It's hard for you to say no to play when it isn't your money, but then it got you back into the arena of gambling again, which of course can then lead to a long term loss beyond the bonus that they offered you. So and most of the bonuses require deposit as well. So you may deposit a $1,000 to get a $1,000 bonus. The catch there is that you put a $1,000 into their ecosystem. Sometimes it's not super easy to get out. So factoring all that in is is super important when it comes to this stuff.

Shane Mercer [00:39:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad, yeah, you shared this, the screenshot with us because, yeah, it's it's pretty remarkable. $180,000. Insane. But you're absolutely right to give North Star, bets a little bit of credit here because they did put it right there on the message, you know, a $180,000. And I love all you need to do is that's just the best of it all. It's just, like, amazing.

Shane Mercer [00:39:34]:

Hey. That's all. That's all. You know? No big deal here. But, you know, again, yeah, kudos to to Doris Star Bets for putting it right there because most of them would put it right here in the click here for promotion terms, and you go and you click that and you've got, you know, fine print and it's 30 pages of fine print to scroll through. You know? And they would have hid it somewhere in there. At least that's that's what I've seen from most sportsbooks. So, you know, something to be aware of.

Shane Mercer [00:39:59]:

And and how many people actually click that. Right? I mean, we kind of do because we we're we're looking for that sort of stuff. But I think the average sports bettor out there simply just sort of skips over that. Right? So

Andrew Pace [00:40:09]:

Yeah. And I'm sure everyone's just on their toes here, waiting to see if I accepted the, the offer. I I did not. I declined.

Shane Mercer [00:40:19]:

Well, I was gonna say rolling over a $180K for PACE, that that's no big deal. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:40:24]:

If if it was all my books, I I think I'd be pretty comfortable with doing it. But just through one account, it's gonna it's gonna I I do it. It just not something I'm interested in doing. Especially knowing

Shane Mercer [00:40:35]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:40:35]:

You get an offer like that, you know, maybe you see my balance there is 3,000 at the time I was offered it. You know, maybe I get up to 10. Maybe I get up to 15. Maybe I get up to 20, but I'm usually limited by then. So then I have to deal with

Shane Mercer [00:40:48]:

You're gonna have a really hard time.

Andrew Pace [00:40:50]:

Betting potentially a 100 and 30 to let's say, 50,000 to a 130,000, while limited to roll it over to get access to my money, that's, that's a nightmare.

Shane Mercer [00:41:04]:

Yeah. No no no fun at all there. Alright. Well, Pace, anything else you wanna mention, before we take off and say goodbye?

Andrew Pace [00:41:12]:

No. I mean, yeah. Just great time of year. Keep enjoying the keep enjoying the summer, guys, and, you know, this is it. Here here comes preseason NFL. It's here. And last year, one of the most profitable times of the year for us. So, really exciting stuff.

Andrew Pace [00:41:28]:

And, I know a lot of people are like, oh, I'm coming back for football. I'm coming back for football. Well, you know, football football, I'll put it quotes beside what I say, is on throughout the whole summer with the CFL, which is a lot of fun to wager on when it's not being fixed.

Shane Mercer [00:41:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. And Watch what you say, Pays. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:41:49]:

And pre and preseason NFL is is tremendous, some of the highest, highest, ROI of the season for us. That, of course, leads us right into college football in the NFL. So buckle up. Here we go.

Shane Mercer [00:42:01]:

Yeah. I was recently actually telling somebody about, preseason football, a a few guys who didn't sort of know much about it and what you do, and I was just saying, like, how, you know, you've got such a great eye for it. You you sort of know a lot of these players already because you've been watching college for as long as you have. And so you already know a lot of the players we're seeing that we may never even see during the regular season, which is which is really impressive to to sort of hear you on streams and you know the 3rd string quarterback because you watched him at such and such school, and you've seen him play games already. It's like and you know what to expect from him. You know, one that comes to mind, actually, I think from last season was Dorian Thompson Robinson. Did I get DTR? Anyway, I think we capitalized on him coming into a game one time, and I was like, how the hell does Pace even know who this guy is? And and how was he able to know that he's such a great player? You know? It was just like yeah. So so kudos to you, buddy.

Shane Mercer [00:42:53]:

You did a great job with that stuff.

Andrew Pace [00:42:54]:

Well well, you know, we just mentioned the CFL too, and I think last year's preseason was absolutely electric. And these aren't, like, a lot of these great opportunities where you're like, oh my god. It it's happening again. Let's bet it again. Like, it isn't like it just keeps being thrown at you. But we did really well when DTR came into the games, for Cleveland last year. Really, really well. And you know what's interesting is I think he got a shot in an NFL game, and he was terrible.

Andrew Pace [00:43:21]:

And the difference of playing against, like, the threes and the fours versus playing against the ones in the NFL is tremendous. The other one was, you know, we watched Nathan Rourke at Ohio in the Mac, and we're like, this kid's fucking good. He was scoring like wildfire there. If if we were betting overs in the MAC when he was in college and when he was playing. And then he was just fucking incredible with the BC Lions. He went to the CFL, and we lit those Lions games on fire. Sometimes we're getting minus 6 pregame, and by the end of the game, we'd have up to, like, minus 37 when he was playing.

Andrew Pace [00:43:58]:

And then he got hurt, And and that was brutal seeing him go down, but then obviously moved over to the NFL, and we hadn't even seen a snap of American football from him now. Good few good few years. And, we're like, guys, Nathan Rourke's in the game. We just gotta take we just gotta take whatever the side there was no advantage line, no no strategy, no nothing. Just we gotta take the side, of the Jags at the time. It's Giants this year. And, sure enough, he he he just delivered for us every single game we bet on him in the preseason last year. So, a little biased over here, but, I can't wait for him to to come in in preseason.

Andrew Pace [00:44:38]:

And I I really do also wanna see him get a shot in the NFL. But, yeah, I mean, Shane, that's exactly it. It's just simply following the leagues. And Yeah. That sounds obviously just so basic. Oh, you know, he just follows it. But the the thing is is that no one else has the time, energy, or ability to be able to follow things to the degree that we do. And and I'm fortunate because I get to see it.

Andrew Pace [00:45:04]:

It's on one of my many screens. Where I'm like, okay. Here's that player. Okay. He's really good. You make a little note. Right? It could be a spreadsheet, could be a notepad, whatever it is. That really helps you, as you progress, through your betting.

Andrew Pace [00:45:19]:

And one of the things too, but this is now going back from the preseason, but it's with college football and, like, the whole COVID rules where we are seeing guys like Michael Penis junior, you know, for 6 years at multiple teams. And, who's the guy that went to Clemson and then went to Oregon, and now he's in the portal again? I don't even know where he is now. DJ Yubanko.

Shane Mercer [00:45:39]:

Guy's got the wrong guy over your face.

Andrew Pace [00:45:41]:

Like, we've watched these guys in college now for, like, 6 years. Yeah. Obviously, Stetson Bennett is now not in the league, but the guy was, like, 60 when he when he declared for the draft. Right? So, like, the COVID rules has allowed us to see some of these quarterbacks, kind of year in, year out. And, you know, you watch, like, Oregon State last year where they're, like, a really good college football team in the grand scheme of the whole country. But we knew, like, we know he sucks. Give him a chance against a good defense in an important game, and he will not deliver. And that's precisely what happened in the end.

Andrew Pace [00:46:18]:

It's like you there's sometimes with betting, you're just waiting for the moment when you get that opportunity. Sometimes you don't get it. Sometimes, you know, you do and you're ready for

Shane Mercer [00:46:27]:

it. There you go. Well, pace, you're born ready for. It's coming. It's just around the corner. And, also, just around the corner, the inplayLIVE big event in Vancouver. I'm looking forward to that coming down again to Vancouver. You're saying it's beautiful where you are.

Shane Mercer [00:46:42]:

I know you're not in Vancouver, but you're sort of a a few hours east of of the area. But I'm I'm looking forward to coming to beautiful BC in 1 month's time. Pace to you and all the bettors listening around the world. Till next week, keep beating those books.