Episode 102

Welcome [00:00:00]:

You're listening to Behind the Lines, a podcast presented by inplayLIVE and powered by Pinnacle, the number one sports book where winners play and never get limited. Go to pinnacle.com/inplaylive to sign up and get in the game.

Shane Mercer [00:00:16]:

Pay them a small subscription so that they can feed you parlays. Like, as if I wasn't capable of going and making throwing together my own parlay, that's gonna lose most of the time. No. I'll pay someone else to give me one.

Shane Mercer [00:00:42]:

Hello, and welcome. It's behind the lines powered by Pinnacle, purifying the sports betting industry. I'm Shane Heaspace. On today's show, New Jersey says it doesn't have enough pie. The betting industry is growing, but so does the scamming and the evolution of IPL. Where does it fit in? Members, stay tuned for this. Even if you're not members, I'm sure you're gonna find it fascinating. Alright.

Shane Mercer [00:01:06]:

Before we get, to what New Jersey wants, I've got some numbers, to share with you, Pace, coming from the American Gaming Association. So these are, some stats, from 2024. So Bettors risked a hundred and $50,000,000,000. This would just be in The US using US sportsbooks. Doesn't include Canada. That's the most since 2018. It's always the most at this sort of stage of the of the industry. Everything is always the most.

Shane Mercer [00:01:37]:

So that's the most since 2018. The amount lost is $13,000,000,000. So a hundred and 50,000,000,000 wagered, 13,000,000,000 lost just in 2024. Now, out of that money, that that was risked and lost, the states getting their tax collected a total of everything combined, 2 and a half billion dollars in tax revenue during that time. Pace, any surprises there? I mean, it's it is always the most. And and apologies for everybody out there as I was sort of making my way through those numbers. As you can see, I'm not in my regular setup. So just wanted to make sure that I was referencing, the right numbers there.

Shane Mercer [00:02:19]:

But, Pace, what do you think?

Andrew Pace [00:02:21]:

Yeah. I hope Chesto works some magic on this podcast, Shane. You sound like shit.

Shane Mercer [00:02:26]:

I got my I got my travel setup going on here, and, it's certainly nowhere near as sophisticated as what we usually use.

Andrew Pace [00:02:33]:

Well, the thing is with audio the audio tools that are out there, you can clean up stuff so easily. But as far as we're recording goes, it sounds like I'm, on the back of a turbulent plane, and you're the pilot letting me know that we're at cruising altitude, and the sportsbooks are still making money.

Shane Mercer [00:02:48]:

Yes. Yes. And everybody out there fasten your seatbelts.

Andrew Pace [00:02:51]:

Exactly. So, I I mean, it it's a good question, Shane. So the the thing is is it's with with anything in the media. Right? Doesn't matter if it's about a sports book, something political, Elon Musk's favorite tweet that you like to respond to, Shane. Doesn't matter what it is. I said I wasn't gonna bring it up, and then I brought it up first thing.

Shane Mercer [00:03:09]:

That's okay. That's okay. I mean, why not respond to Elon Musk? Everyone else does.

Andrew Pace [00:03:15]:

Okay. But, you you know, you're you're you you get you get the information as it's presented to you. So I'd I'd have a lot of questions, you know, right off the bat about the numbers that you just you just rung off. So hundred and $50,000,000,000 was wagered. Correct?

Shane Mercer [00:03:30]:

Correct. Hundred 50,000,000,000 wagered, 13,000,000,000 lost, and 2 and a half billion in tax revenue.

Andrew Pace [00:03:36]:

13,000,000,000 lost, you mean players lost 13,000,000,000?

Shane Mercer [00:03:39]:

That's correct.

Andrew Pace [00:03:41]:

Yeah. So that in theory is $13,000,000,000 in profit. Obviously, there's more to the equation of of profit than just money wagered and and money lost by the player. But, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it's surprising, from a betting industry needing to be profitable and successful standpoint. I guess that's kind of good news on that side of the equation. You never wanna hear about people losing a bunch of money, but these businesses are there to to make money, obviously. That's that's their purpose. So they they kinda do need to head into that direction.

Andrew Pace [00:04:21]:

Interestingly enough, there's just a couple things I wanted to bring up, and this kinda segues into it right away. I got an email today that FitzDares is no longer operating in Ontario. I think this was one that we brought up on podcast at some point a couple years back. Yeah. You know? And, they're the same book as, you know, that, like, fans bet we made fun of a bunch who they're not operating anymore be not because of being regulated and not succeeding because of just how shady they were as a sportsbook. They they got shut down or or whatever the case with them. But I think they were the same lines as them. And, the reason why I bring that up is because you're like, new records, new records, new records.

Andrew Pace [00:05:00]:

Right? Like, more money wagered, all that kind of stuff.

Shane Mercer [00:05:03]:

Mhmm.

Andrew Pace [00:05:03]:

Now with profitability is, associated with it. There's been times where you've been on the podcast in the last couple years where you've been like, well, this much was wagered, but nothing was actually won Or the the margin that was won, by the sportsbooks I'm referencing, being actually quite quite low. And, you know, we've looked at some stock prices and some things, and we go, jeez. They're these sportsbooks aren't figuring out how to make money. So not only is it record record record, but it's also withdraw, withdraw, withdraw. And there are more and more operators leaving the regulated landscape than I would have predicted or quicker than I would have predicted at least. And we had a little chat about this on stream the other day. 888 was in New Jersey.

Andrew Pace [00:05:47]:

They pulled out right away. Betway is out of The United States. Obviously, Wynn and Fox Bet are gone. Unibet isn't even Unibet anymore. The I don't know what the name of their sportsbook is, but they pulled out of, New Jersey and Ontario and changed the name of their sportsbook. I think sports act sports interaction left Ontario. We know Bet nine nine left Ontario, and I'm I'm just spitballing right now. I don't I'm not reading a list.

Andrew Pace [00:06:10]:

There are a lot more that have pulled out. So we've got record, record, record high profit, but to fewer operators. Right? Not to mention, a lot of these operators, as we know, we talked about the Rogaine or whatever the hell it's called, That is them all sort of colluding and sharing information with each other about their players. So, no. Not surprised. This is kind of the state state of things in the industry right now.

Shane Mercer [00:06:36]:

Yeah. Yeah. It it really is. I'm glad you brought a a fit stairs. They were a really, really interesting one because I think their goal was to open up a whole bunch of brick and mortar places in in Ontario, in Toronto. And it would be like a a sophisticated sort of sports book that you could, you know, go and attend, similar to to what you might find in in Vegas or or something like that. But, you know, not something that we really have here in Ontario. So they were gonna do something kinda kinda new in that sense.

Shane Mercer [00:07:02]:

But, you know, obviously, not the landscape for them, since since they ended up having to leave. And you're right. We've seen a lot of those, you know, I won't even call them sort of, you know, fourth or fifth players in terms of market share for whatever regulated market they're operating in. But, you know, at least in Ontario, sort of well even below that, you know, the the tenth, you know, tenth and and ninth kind of, books that that, you know, most people probably would never even venture to unless, you know, you're you're doing the kind of thing that we are. Yeah. So so not not not surprising, I think, maybe to to sort of see people come in. And by people, I mean, operators see them come into the market and then and then sort of see themselves out.

Andrew Pace [00:07:46]:

Right. And and on the flip side of that, those sportsbooks that I mentioned, they're still operating in Canada in the gray market. And then now we're seeing an increase in The United States of gray market, sportsbooks outside of the regulated states and inside the regulated states. So we're just having a chat last night about an opportunity that came up in the New Jersey Devils game in our Discord after our stream was over, and people are like, oh, just go to tonybet.com. It's their US site. Stake.com, it's their US site. We've got, you know, Novig and Underdog and some of these sweepstakes models that are popping up in The US, essentially, like loopholes. So it's interesting because why is FitStair's and this is probably the single worst example of a sportsbook, but a much better one would be Bet nine nine.

Andrew Pace [00:08:31]:

Why is Bet nine nine operating in Canada still but could not succeed in the regulated market? Why is tony bet dot com available in The US but never applied for regulation in The in or never succeeded in applying in regulation in some of the major states like New Jersey that at some point had, like, over 70 operators, in that state. And how is it that they're able to succeed in a more sustainable way, a more competitive way amidst the other like, we're we're not talking about the unregulated market being less competitive and therefore, then they succeed. It's significantly more competitive. There's way more sportsbooks available in the gray market than there are, right, in these regulated, states. Take Massachusetts, for example, who has, like, eight operators. Right? So why is it that they're able to succeed outside of the parameters of regulation and do so with a lot more ease? Is it because they have to pay their they don't have to pay out all their bets? Is it because they can give customers the runaround with verification before they pay them? Is it because they can do, minimum weekly or daily payouts where they say, oh, our our max payout per day is $2,000, or our max payout per week per week is 2,000 or $5,000, which leads to players tilting and and losing more money. You and and separately of that, these people are also attracting more sharp action because sharp action isn't sustainable completely and exclusively in your own name in a regulated state. So that's the question.

Andrew Pace [00:10:16]:

Is it simply because they're dodging the tax? Well, the tax that you just brought up was what? What did you say? Nine, you said they made 13,000,000,002.5 of that went to tax. That's right. That to me doesn't it's I mean, it's not a small number, but it doesn't seem like a make or break percentage that would completely take you out of the regulated market if you were one of these books that that has left there and is still operating in the gray market. So I don't know. I find the whole thing interesting. I I desperately, at this point, want the gray market to to succeed. I want sportsbooks like Underdog or, you know, Stake.com or whatever it is to be for for people in The United States to be able to access them and use them. I don't wanna hear about Bovada closing up because they're going after them because they're the they're the biggest competitor to the regulated books in those states.

Andrew Pace [00:11:01]:

I want Bovada around for the players and for for the competitiveness of it.

Shane Mercer [00:11:06]:

Okay. You listed a whole bunch of reasons as to as to why there and then brought up the tax. I I think I'm that's a great opportunity for us to talk about the tax because maybe they're seeing the writing on the wall. And what I mean by that is here's New Jersey, for example. They just came out. Their governor, Phil Murphy has come out and said he wants to raise the tax on sportsbooks. Right. Currently being taxed at a rate of 13%.

Shane Mercer [00:11:33]:

IGaming, so we're talking about online casinos here, they're taxed at different rate, 15% in the state of New Jersey. So 13% for the sportsbook, 15% for, the casino, and, governor Phil Murphy wants to up it to, 25%. Okay? So we're talking about more than, or or doubling it or or close to doubling it, for for casinos, 25%. So, you know, this would still be lower than than what we see in New York and Pennsylvania. They're both over the 50% mark, but it's following in the footsteps of states like Illinois and Ohio. Illinois increased from 15% to 35%, just over a year ago, and and Ohio's also made a similar move going from 10% to 20%. Ten %, to 20% in 2023. K? So so Ohio started at 10%, went to 20% in 2023, and that state is now looking to go from 20% to 40%.

Shane Mercer [00:12:33]:

So, I mean, perhaps these books are just seeing the trend and are like, you know what? We could we can we can play ball right now where we're at, and we're we're sort of scraping by and making a small profit. But if the tax rate in this regulated market is going to double, maybe they can't play ball.

Andrew Pace [00:12:53]:

Yeah. And, I mean, you know, if you're a bookie or a gray market book, you just start licking your chops because it's all coming full circle to an extent if these books start pulling out. Are DraftKings and FanDuel gonna be around? I think so.

Shane Mercer [00:13:05]:

I think so. Gonna be around.

Andrew Pace [00:13:06]:

Yeah. Right? Are the rest of them gonna be around? Exactly. Right? Yeah. Are the rest of them gonna be around? We don't have the answer to that, but, certainly, we've seen that it's less, and it sounds like it's gonna continue to be less. And if that's the case, you know, where does this is all I really care about at the end of the day. Where does that leave the player? Right? Where does that leave you, Shane? Where does that leave me? Where does it leave the members of the inplayLIVE community? And oftentimes, it takes creative solutions to to do what we have to continue to do to an extent.

Shane Mercer [00:13:38]:

Yeah. It's it's gonna it's gonna very likely leave us with with fewer and fewer outs as as these books, you know, look to move on because they just, you know, they're they're, you know, they're not. The the DraftKings or FanDuels or, you know, at least here in Ontario, the bet three six five, which I would say probably still has the the greatest market share at least, in Ontario in pace. I don't know. May I I would I would imagine for the rest of Canada as well. You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:14:04]:

But certainly not this not the case in The US where FanDuel has, the largest market share and and is sort of, being referred to quite frequently now as the largest sports book, in America. Right. Obviously, DraftKings is is a big time rival there. But, yeah, I think I think you're gonna start to see a lot of, a lot of these books having to move out. And then, we know that the Sharpe model, you know, is one that has, tighter margins. And so, you know, if the Sharpe books are are going to be squeezed with these kinds of taxes, You know, sharp sports bettors in these in these, in these markets are are going to are gonna have a really tough time, I think.

Andrew Pace [00:14:48]:

Yeah. I mean, you said something you're, like, less and less out. So I think I think it's less and less regulated out.

Shane Mercer [00:14:53]:

Regulated out. Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:14:55]:

Yeah. And you know what you know what else is interesting? So I swear to god it was, like, three years ago when we were talking about Alberta being the next province to be regulated in Canada. Like, I I think it was three years ago. This begs the question when you look at this big picture, and if the people involved in both, you know, passing through betting in a new state or province, number one, how hard they're pushing it and how they're pushing it. But number two, the pushback in the reasons to say no to it. You you do you not look at this big picture and just go, why even entertain the idea now? Because because of the fact that there are books operating in this gray market, number one, that maybe we don't have the best control over that we were hoping to have controlled, and number two, because of the fact that the competitive nature of the industry seems to be regressing to a certain extent.

Shane Mercer [00:15:57]:

Yeah. You know, I think I think if you are in, an unregulated market, so so, you know, the majority of Canada and and I think, you know, we're there's still about 13 holdout states in The US, California and Texas, of course, being the two really big ones. I think if you're in, you know, you're a lawmaker there, you're probably still just, kind of maybe licking your chops up the whole thing as it explodes thinking like, oh, I can't you know, if we we gotta do this so that we can get a share of those tax dollars, without maybe seeing the full picture. And and I say that pace because whenever we we really pay close attention to what the lawmakers and what the regulators are doing, you know, the people that you think are, supposed to be the most knowledgeable in the space and and sort of, you know, have have done the most research and that kind of thing, we start to see that, actually, they haven't, and they know very little about the space. And, they they sort of tend to have blinders on sometimes and and are so heavily influenced by the books right from the get go. So, I I don't know that it'll be, that that competitive nature will be a deterrent.

Andrew Pace [00:17:08]:

Yeah. I guess, like always, time will tell. The other thing that I wanted to bring up was that in The UK, and I don't know where specifically, but this is again from a member in our community, they threw out there that they now have, I guess, audits associated with their income as soon as they have deposited more than a hundred and €50 to a sportsbook in one month. Not a day, not a week, One month.

Shane Mercer [00:17:39]:

One month.

Andrew Pace [00:17:40]:

So as soon as you hit a hundred and €50, there's some sort of financial audit that you have to prove that you have the means to have deposited that amount of money. And there's gonna be two sides to something like this. The first side, obviously, is gonna be we are protecting against crime, money laundering, and whatever else is associated with people moving big money through, casinos and sportsbooks. So that side of it, I'm always kinda be like, okay. You know? That's fair. Limit that as much as you can. Obviously, there's tons of sportsbooks that that's their livelihood, especially in the crypto space. But then the second is, like, we talked about this last week.

Andrew Pace [00:18:23]:

It's like an adult who deposits $200 into a site now is getting a financial audit that needs to prove that they had the means to lose this money. And my issue with this stuff typically is never gonna be about the responsible gaming side of it. So if you take this strictly from the standpoint of responsible gaming, maybe there's some validity there, but that isn't the case. They're gonna only look at this stuff once you pull your funds and use it as a reason to either, number one, catch you in a situation where they're like, you didn't have the means to play the way you played, and now there's gonna be some sort of struggle for you to get your funds. And number two is looking at, you know, potentially people using multiple accounts. Not necessarily multi accounting, but, you know, someone like myself going and using someone's account who didn't have this a 50 of disposable income, you know, to go play with and then, you know, essentially going where did you get that money from to to deposit. And and in my case, obviously, it wouldn't have been €200 or a hundred and €50. It would have been a couple more zeros there.

Andrew Pace [00:19:36]:

Right? So

Shane Mercer [00:19:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like such a small amount to to go with the auto insurance.

Andrew Pace [00:19:42]:

Im saying I don't view this as a responsible gaming thing. I view this as a way for sportsbooks to kinda gain more control over potentially winning players.

Shane Mercer [00:19:52]:

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they've gotta, you know, prove that they had the means to to to wager what they did in the first place. That's a that's a a a I it's a bit of a slippery slope there, and that is such a low low threshold. You know, such a small amount of money. I mean, I I don't know. It seems like it would be a lot of work for the books to have to go through that.

Andrew Pace [00:20:15]:

Totally. Well, take take this take this basic example. Right, Shane? If you're in Las Vegas or if you're in Vancouver, so whether you're in a different city than the one you currently live in. And then, of course, in Toronto. You walk into a casino that day. Do you get ID'd? Probably.

Shane Mercer [00:20:35]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:20:36]:

Do do you get ID'd when you arrive? I know in Vancouver, the answer is yes. I know in Vegas, the answer is no. Right? Those those Vegas casinos are hotels. So you walk into them. The time that they will ID you is when you start playing if they feel that you need to be ID'd. I haven't been ID'd in Vegas for a very, very long time. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:21:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's, same in same in Ontario as it is in in, in in British Columbia there. You get ID'd at the door. And, you you know, everybody kinda gets ID'd. It's sort of like, you know, the yeah. There's no discretion really. It's just everybody just shows their ID as they walk in.

Andrew Pace [00:21:16]:

So you go to the ATM machine. You pull out however much money you pull out. You get charged some egregious fee by the ATMs inside the casino because they're capitalizing on essentially your desperation in that moment.

Shane Mercer [00:21:28]:

But yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:21:31]:

You need to bring your own patch with you. Not to mention the currency exchange fees if you're from different country playing in those casinos. But they hit you harder with everything once you're inside of the casino. They don't check to see if you had the means to pay for the fee. They don't check to see they don't check to see if you can afford the withdraw. It's strictly based on whether or not that money is actually there or available to you. Not to mention, they work with credit cards. So if I'm walking into a casino and I have a $10,000 credit limit, probably I probably have a cash advance somewhere between 2 to $5,000 that I can then go and pull that money out.

Andrew Pace [00:22:09]:

That doesn't mean that I can afford to lose that money. There's no steps or process associated with that withdraw beyond the one that I just mentioned. I was verified at the door. Now in the case of Vegas, most of the time, for most players, you go out to that cage, you cash out, and the only form of identification that's gonna be flipped on a regular basis is gonna be a player's card for your rewards tracking. Right? Like an an MGM rewards or a Caesars rewards type player's card. So I'm not being ID'd ever. So I walked in. I had no cash.

Andrew Pace [00:22:49]:

I got rinsed at the ATM machine. I got rinsed on the tables. There's no responsible gaming checks whatsoever. No one ID'd me. And then if I go pull out a little bit of money, as long as it wasn't a crazy amount, no one ever checked to see who I was in the first place, especially if I didn't have a player's card. Now the times I have been ID'd in Vegas is when you go to the cage and you have a certain color chip. Right? You get to a level where you gotta put it down at the window. Not only did they then ID you, they actually call the table to find out if the the games you were playing match your your story.

Andrew Pace [00:23:25]:

They call the pit boss, hey. This guy in this white hat just came in. He's got a couple of pink chips here. What game was he playing? They turn to you, and they say, what game were you playing? Right? Like, there is a little bit of a verification there, but it's again, of course, it's only based on cashing out and the money that you won. I've actually had to spend quite a bit of time sometimes, like and I you guys know I'm not an advantage casino player. I just fuck around if I'm gonna play in the casino. But I've I've gone through that process there. And I guess, ultimately, what the point is is that if I'm face to face in these brick and mortar places, there's no issues whatsoever, which again brings it back to the only reason that they're doing this isn't about responsible gaming.

Andrew Pace [00:24:09]:

It's about catching winning players that are using someone else's account. That's the only reason because why else wouldn't they instill all of these same practices at the brick and mortar places that are operated by the exact same people or the exact same companies.

Shane Mercer [00:24:25]:

Yeah. You know what? That's a good that's a great point. You're you're you're you're probably onto something there where this is more about, control, when it comes to knowing your customer, KYC stuff. You know? Yeah. Well, it'll be it'll be sort of interesting to kinda see it how how it how it plays out. I I hope that we don't start to see that kind of thing, on this side of the pond, and they can keep it over there. But that is a much more developed, industry over there, in in Europe, when it comes to sports betting. It's it's much further along than we are here in North America.

Shane Mercer [00:24:58]:

And, you know, we've we've seen some some lawmakers over here on this side of the pond talk about, that kind of thing, affordability checks. Right? That's a very sort of popular, term thrown around by by, advocates, you know, people who are concerned about about gambling addiction and that kind of thing. But I I think you're you're probably right in the sense that it it could lead to the sportsbooks just having greater control and being able to, cause frustration for winning bettors.

Andrew Pace [00:25:30]:

Totally. And and also too, I mean, the over the pond stuff has set the tone for a lot of the practices here. Yeah. I think The US took a crack at some bonuses and some some different things to acquire customers that seemed unprecedented when it all started. It was like, you're giving away what bonus? You're giving this? Holy smokes. You guys are in trouble. And they were. They they they were.

Andrew Pace [00:25:49]:

It cost them a lot of money to do those things that they did. But, you know, the industry like, there's certain tones of certain industries. Right? Like, this won't maybe relate to the people in The US. But do you ever get back from the hospital and go, goddamn, that receptionist customer service was incredible. Right? Like, at a Canadian hospital. Right? And there nothing's ever on time. You have to wait months. You know what I mean? So, like, it's just if there's a precedent set, like, you know, you're not gonna have the most friendly experience necessarily in in a Canadian hospital.

Andrew Pace [00:26:19]:

Right? And I think the the same tune goes for a lot of the standards that were set over the pond in The UK for the bedding industry. All the practices and things that they do, especially with the operators that then come overseas to to try to get their piece of the pie here in North America, it all spills over, which is why we've seen some stuff that the regulators have kind of been shocked by where they actually have had to step in and go, hey. You know, you guys can't do that. Like, you that this is the player's money. It's not yours. You have to cash them out in full today. You know? Mhmm.

Shane Mercer [00:26:52]:

Which is which is great. And then it's nice to have a regulator to go to, when you end up in a dispute. Absolutely. Okay. I wanna talk about another sort of side of this industry that has grown, exploded, and continues to blow up in pace. That's the side, that that you're very much on and in and have kind of lived. And and I'm talking about, the, the touts and the tout services out there. Right? Which is which is insane.

Shane Mercer [00:27:22]:

Right? Betting betting tips services. Right? That whole space has grown in incredibly. And, Has it? Well, I'm seeing that it's massive. You know, when I when I look on threads I'm on threads as we've kinda chatted about quite a bit here, but not just on threads, on Twitter as well where I'm tweeting at Elon Musk. You know, my feeds, pace, are overwhelmingly now overwhelmingly. People who want you to follow them, to tail their picks, to join their Discord communities, to pay them a small subscription so that they can feed you parlays. Like, as if I wasn't capable of going and making throwing together my own parlay, that's gonna lose most of the time. No.

Shane Mercer [00:28:10]:

I'll pay someone else to give me one. Anyway, but what I I'm saying is is that I'm just I'm flooded with it, PACE. It is it is constant. And it's like Okay. Even the ones that perhaps they're not pushing parlays, perhaps they're pushing straights. And they realize that that, you know, parlays are negative EV. And these are people who are trying to put out positive EV plays. You know, the they're they're few and far between, but those those ones exist as well.

Shane Mercer [00:28:37]:

Those those tend to be the the people I wanna engage with a little bit more and have actual conversations about the betting landscape from a sharp perspective. Those are the people I'm trying to connect with, but, those are so few and far between. Most of them are are are putting out, you know, complete garbage. They're also, Pace, not doing kind of any of the things that you would probably advise people look for if they're looking for a betting service, outside of IPL. Things like, you know, a P and L record, you know, a a hit rate, profits gained over a certain period of time, units won lost, all that sort of, you know, stuff that you would want to see and be able to verify. Right? The vast majority aren't putting anything out there like that. If you even question them about it, they get very defensive. They get aggressive.

Shane Mercer [00:29:28]:

You know, I've talked a little bit about that before. But it's I swear, man, it's like everyone who's ever won a bet in their life suddenly thinks that they can operate a service and get people to pay a subscription. But the crazy thing, Pais, is that people are. At least it appears that they are. And and and we're talking about stuff that's like, hey, $10 a month, $20 a month, $30 a month. You know, the these sorts of things where it's like, you know, if somebody here is a sharp bettor, one, and two, is crushing the books, k, Do they really wanna go out of their way to create a betting service and charge people $10 for a subscription fee? You know what I mean? Like, it just seems like a ton of work for someone that's that's out there, you know, crushing the books the way they claim to be. You know, like, why not just focus on that and and doing really well with that? So I kinda wanted to get maybe your perspective on where you see it as somebody who's sort of been in the space, over the last, you know, four or five years. And and whether you think it's it's grown or maybe maybe it's shrunk from your perspective, and I'm just seeing more of it myself.

Shane Mercer [00:30:42]:

I don't know what but I I I feel like it's grown significantly. And it seems like any like I said, anyone who's ever won a bet can suddenly, feels like they should be offering a service.

Andrew Pace [00:30:54]:

Sure. Yeah. I think I mean, it kinda speaks to the the same idea of tons and tons of sportsbooks opening up in Ontario or New Jersey and getting regulated, and then now they're not here anymore. Right? It's it's everyone trying to get their piece of the pie. That's number one. Number two, the way social media works is that if you kinda get that home run, whether it's a home run bet or a home run video, you know, whatever it is, and you can kinda play off of that, there's something crazy that happens. So the the the basic model is is this. You know, rent your Lamborghini, go park up by the beach, get a beautiful, you know, assistant or or woman in the video with you maybe at some point.

Andrew Pace [00:31:40]:

Get some big stacks of cash in the Lambo or beside the Lambo, and then tell people that what you do for a living and and tell them it's betting, and that's where all this profit and money came from, and get you get views. And then when you get views and you have something to offer people, you know, if it's free to join or if it's $10 or $30 to join and it's relatively cheap, a lot of people will look at that and go, okay. I'll take a crack. But then the social media from that point forward can be almost, like, self fulfilling from the standpoint of if you're active and you keep posting, the very next day when you post something and the other one too that you see a lot is, comment pick, and I'll send you my card for today. And you look at the comments, and it's like, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick. Well, you just drove a bunch of engagement on your channel because you're getting all these people to comment to see what it is. And the, the the the picks are auto sent out to you when you type in the comments below. So if you type pick underneath the comment, in your DMs will come the automated message.

Andrew Pace [00:32:54]:

You didn't actually have to put that work in yourself other than building that one message that gets automated out to the customer. Maybe even when you comment pick, it says the picks are actually in this link. And you click the link, and you have to go through a bit of a sign up process to then, you know, reveal that free pick for the day. And then, obviously, you hit a point too where there might be some sort of a paywall. But then the next day when that happens and they send out the information, you start to get people that won, that will comment. And, of course, at the same time, if you're the the tipster, tout, whatever, you are then telling all the people, hey. Tell people that we won yesterday. Hey, man.

Andrew Pace [00:33:38]:

It was your first day. You got this pick for free. I'd really appreciate it if you could comment on today's video. Hey. This guy's fire. I hit my my parlay yesterday, or, hey. This guy's awesome. I I we hit the Rangers yesterday.

Andrew Pace [00:33:50]:

You know, whatever the hell it is. Right? Yeah. But then when the losing run inevitably comes, which in a lot of these cases of the example you're giving, Shane, it's always a losing run.

Shane Mercer [00:33:59]:

Oh, there's yeah. I mean, of course.

Andrew Pace [00:34:02]:

Right? But what happens is is you still get the people wanting to see what the picks are. Number one, they wanna see if it wins or loses, and they don't play it themselves, so they just wanna see it. Number two, you now have started to develop haters. They might fade you, but they want to keep watching you lose. They're cheering against you. And what happens when you do that is you still are feeding the algorithm of the videos being put out so that you continue to be put in front of them, number one, but because you engaged with it, more people are being shown that content. So, like, the cash, stack of cash, Lamborghini, you know, whether it's Sean Perry or this guy Seiblaz or whoever some of these guys are, there aren't a lot of records. There aren't a lot of ROIs.

Andrew Pace [00:34:51]:

There are a lot of this is what I do, and here's my my pile of cash. Right? And then that model has then, of course, been followed time and again where if anyone can convince you, whether it's everything from saying you know the outcome of the match, like a fixed game type stuff, there's tons of that stuff out there.

Shane Mercer [00:35:10]:

We just look at it. Game. That

Andrew Pace [00:35:12]:

that's what Chida Chester's today game thing is from is a guy trying to sell him. He'd say, are you ready for today game? And then he'd try to sell him a fixed matitches. He couldn't even spell match correctly. But he he tried to sell him fixed matitches. Right? You you just gotta get one guy sometimes that that starts following you a little bit, which I'm gonna be honest with you, Shane. So you asked me for my opinion. There is without question I'm gonna round up here. K? There is without question not a week that goes by where someone doesn't contact me where I could get the easiest sale imaginable because they're looking for picks, and they're happy to join provided I give them these picks.

Andrew Pace [00:35:56]:

They want something for free. They want picks. They want locks. At least once a week, I get a message like that. And if I am one of those tipsters or touts and I get that message where he goes, hey. The guy at inplayLIVE won't help me. He said this isn't the way that I should operate in the betting industry and gave me a bunch of reasons why. That's not what I wanted to hear.

Andrew Pace [00:36:16]:

In fact, I didn't even read them. I just went on to the next guy that's selling a pick service, and he says, you know, take, take the Chiefs to win today. They're minus nine favorites. You you give out the Chiefs' money line. It's gonna come through at a at a hit rate of, you know, potentially 85, 90 percent. Odds are you won that game. Odds are you can then say, I told you so. Odds are you have a higher probability then of selling that person something.

Andrew Pace [00:36:43]:

Right? So, like, Vegas Dave was, like, the earliest tout or scammer that was out running this thing, and it worked for him because I don't know how this happened, but action gave him a a spot on a documentary that he wasn't deserving of right next to Bill Kracenberg. And Bill Kracenberg is like he's a he's a tipster. He sells packages and all that kind of stuff, but he actually is a professional sports bettor. And there's this fundamental difference between someone who's really good at this and and how they handle that and their customers and someone obviously that, you know, that isn't. That is a scammer. And, you know, Vegas Dave, ran with it for as long as he possibly could. And one of the big things he was doing was he would just take, you know, your MLB slate, your typical, like, three or four game, you know, you're playing the same team three or four games that your typical series, and he'd take the biggest favorite. And he would bet them on the money line and then the amount that you lost, you'd lay the juice on them day two, and then you'd lay the juice on them day three.

Andrew Pace [00:37:38]:

And Martingale, those three or four games. And then at the end of the season, he'd say I went twenty two and three. Right? But those three times that you lost means you Martingale those three or four games on the juiciest line of the day, minus 200 to minus 400 MLB favorites, and you actually went broke those three times. So, essentially, you're twenty two and three on surviving this Martingale, but the three times that you you failed, you failed to the detriment of your entire bankroll. And a lot of them will advise unit sizes beyond what their bankroll or money management even is capable of holding. So if you have a hundred units in their bankroll, they'll say this is a 200 unit play. It's like, wait. What? You know? So, it's it's just it's it goes back to the whole buyer beware thing.

Andrew Pace [00:38:26]:

And, Shane, on on the, you know, what have you seen, all that kind of stuff. The the guys that that are that are good and successful at this, they will last. They'll be around still. And I don't mean around on Twitter trying to sell you still. I mean, customers that will back them and say, yeah. This guy really helped me, or this guy's the real deal, and this is why. The nature of it as a whole is difficult because the edge that I got isn't necessarily the edge that you got. So if I'm like, hey.

Andrew Pace [00:38:56]:

I'm sending out the the Chiefs at minus four at minus one zero five on this sportsbook. How much time do you have before that line moves if there is truly value on it?

Shane Mercer [00:39:07]:

Okay. So you've been in the space now sort of, you know, doing your thing and and kinda, you know, competing with these other services. Right? No. No. No. You wouldn't say you're competing? I mean, you're you're you're it's definitely a different, a a different level of of, of what you're doing versus what they're doing, a %. But but you don't feel like you're competing with other with other tipsters out there? Why not?

Andrew Pace [00:39:31]:

I don't those customers are not people that we're interested in. If someone was if someone was genuinely one of those people and by to to use the term that gets everyone canceled, these people or those people. Like right? If if someone is genuinely someone who has paid for services before in hopes of a greater future in the betting space or in any space, whether it's stock you know, day trading, elearning space as a whole, like, you bought something to better yourself, and it didn't work out or you got scammed. I don't wanna say I don't want that person as a customer. That's not fair to that person. But what I would say is, as a general statement across the board, the people that aren't willing to put the work in that want a handout that's a pick or a parlay that's gonna change their life, those are the people that we're not interested in. But if you're someone that tried something, it didn't work, and you're still seeking how to better yourself, but you just don't have you you just haven't maybe found that right fit and you're willing to work at it, those are the people that we could arguably both be competing for. But I think that's a very small subset of the market.

Shane Mercer [00:40:45]:

It I would agree with you there. It does seem like a very, very small set a small subset. There there's a lot of people out there like you're kinda getting at that just want the pick. Give me the pick today. You know? And and and, you know, we'll go from there, and I'll bug you about tomorrow's pick if it wins. You know? And it's just, yeah. They're they're not interested in doing the work. So so much so that they don't even wanna come up with their own picks or figure out a way to make winning picks or or long term winning picks.

Shane Mercer [00:41:12]:

We're seeing all those people out there, Pace. And and you've been in the space, and, you just got kicked off of Facebook. Tell tell us a little bit about how this happened. What happened. You've you know, Facebook has been core to inplayLIVE at least since I've joined it and I think right from the beginning. And and that's how I first came across you was on Facebook. That that's where I first saw you.

Andrew Pace [00:41:36]:

Pretty much pretty much ever pretty much everyone first started there. So I'll I'll give you guys a little bit of background.

Andrew Pace [00:41:40]:

And, actually, if anyone's in the industry and they have a a product or service, whether it's a sports book or some of the things that you just mentioned, Shane, anything, Advertising is a challenge in the space big time. That's why this affiliate model works, and that's why you don't log on to to Facebook and see an ad for Bet three six five, you know, in the middle of your Facebook page. Right? So when we started inplayLIVE, like, this is this is gonna really really go back and get into the nuts and bolts of some of the things that we did. But when we started inplayLIVE, we got denied for advertising on Facebook over and over and over again. And the entire basis of our business, like, the model that we followed, was very much mimicking the elearning space. We weren't mimicking, like, some, you know, other tipster or any anything in the sports betting space at all. It was like, we are teaching you how to successfully sports bet through a masterclass, not through live streams because that that wasn't what we were doing yet through a masterclass.

Andrew Pace [00:42:38]:

Yeah. And we are going to sell this masterclass to aspiring customers that wanna learn more about betting.

Shane Mercer [00:42:45]:

Yeah. For people out there too, I I would say you've brought it you've said the word master class, and chances are if you've been on Facebook, you've seen the master class ads. And and I think, you know, that that's very similar to what I came across initially with IPL. Sort of similar similar vein.

Andrew Pace [00:43:00]:

Yeah. Totally. And and that's the the model we followed, and it was, like, right off the hop. It was almost like, guys, we've just gotten into business in something that we're not allowed to sell. Like, they're not letting us do this. Interestingly enough, we got contacted by a marketing company who was like, hey, guys. Like, don't worry about that. You don't need to to sell through Facebook or through Meta or through any social platform.

Andrew Pace [00:43:21]:

Like, we'll help you. We'll get you on the right sites. So we gave this guy, like, sort of a little a little test budget, a little trial to go out there and start advertising. And we get an email one day, and it's this guy saying, hey. I can't access your site. I I I'm it's getting blocked by, like, a proxy or firewall or whatever. I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's it's getting blocked, essentially. And we ended up digging into it a little bit more, and we found out that it was his comp he was trying to purchase our product from his office.

Andrew Pace [00:43:52]:

So he's in his corporate, you know, Internet corporate Wi Fi that maybe has some sites blocked. So it's got inplayLIVE blocked, and it says, warning, adult content. And then below said it's flagged for pornography.

Shane Mercer [00:44:08]:

Oh, what'd you guys have on that site?

Andrew Pace [00:44:14]:

Not not there was there was there was no there was no pornography on on the site.

Shane Mercer [00:44:19]:

I mean, you did have your your shirts kinda open sometimes, PACE. You know? Like, the sort of, you know, buttons loose at the top there. I don't know. That might add something to do with it.

Andrew Pace [00:44:29]:

Right? So what it was was this marketing agency put us on up on a bunch of porn channels. So you you're you're you're you're getting all excited. You're ready to, you know, take care of your own personal business, I guess, and up pops and in play a lot. So I honestly, I think we were with these guys for, like, I wanna say two to four days about that time frame.

Shane Mercer [00:44:57]:

Okay.

Andrew Pace [00:44:58]:

And we're like, guys, you made no mention of what your marketing strategy was other than getting us on the right sites to to to sell. We we didn't give this guy a bunch of money. It isn't like we're like, here's this multi thousand dollar contract. Give him a few hundred bucks, and we're like, stop everything right now. This is, like, totally done. Whatever extra money still hadn't gone out still whatever extra money still hadn't gone out, Yeah. We we we never ran the ads on on, you know, Pornhub or wherever the hell they were running. But, that that was that was because we remember so, anyways, that sort of led us to figuring things out with with Meta.

Andrew Pace [00:45:39]:

We basically went down the channel of, like, hey. We are not a casino. We are an education platform. We're not making any you know? And we had to play by their rules. And what people naturally do when they see a scam is they report it, and they're all over the place right now. Like, I've seen ones in the last four years. A really good example was when the crypto boom was was kinda coming up, and Elon was talk Elon bought Dogecoin. There's, like, these AI videos essentially saying that Elon is, you know, giving away a bunch of his Dogecoin, and you watch, like, a webinar on on him, you know, giving away Doge.

Andrew Pace [00:46:14]:

And you send $1,000 worth. He sends 2,000 back, and, like, they get a bunch of people to to do this, I guess. Otherwise, it wouldn't operate. But those types of scams, what do you do? You immediately report it. If any of your friends are somehow like, a friend that sent it to you, which is the example I'm giving you is actually an inplayLIVE member sending me this link of Elon Musk giving away money and was saying, like, hey. We gotta take advantage of this, basically. And, you know, you tell your friend that, you know, it's not, it's not legit. Right? And and you report it.

Andrew Pace [00:46:46]:

Right? Well, we live in a world that's just so full of scams. Like, think about the whole tout thing that you were just talking about right now. And it's, like, the big the big thing out there too is, he gives half the people team a, and he gives the other half team b. And the half that won, he celebrates that win. And the half that lost, he tries to keep selling to them and saying, you know, we'll get the next one, basically. I personally have been accused on that under my ads or our ads on Facebook. Like, not once or twice, dozens and dozens of times. So I would say it was about maybe six months to a year into our business, like, inplayLIVE, where we had enough reports on our ads, basically saying that these guys are full of shit, that they shut down our ability to advertise, on the platform.

Andrew Pace [00:47:38]:

So they kept we still have the inplayLIVE Facebook page. We still have the inplayLIVE Instagram page, but we are no longer permitted to advertise. Not only that, like, if we go to meta verified for inplayLIVE, we can't get verified. So, like, you'll see my personal Instagram has that blue check mark. We can't get it for inplayLIVE because of the fact that we were reported enough times by, you know, people that had seen our content. And, Shane, you've seen all our content.

Shane Mercer [00:48:05]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:48:05]:

Right? It it would be very similar to reporting a short version of this podcast today.

Shane Mercer [00:48:10]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:48:10]:

Right? We're talking about winning money we're talking about winning money from betting on sports. If you just clip the segment that I just said right there and we post that as an ad, it will get reported. Time and time again, it will get reported. It rubs people the wrong way. You know, people telling you that you can win money from gambling or betting on sports. And and if a lot of that is for good reason, we just said The United States Thirteen Billion Dollars in in profit to the books Mhmm. Off a 50,000,000,000 wagered. Right? That that is the nature of the industry.

Andrew Pace [00:48:39]:

So to say anything otherwise, yeah, people people obviously don't believe it, and they report you. So what we did then is we're, like, we we are we're we're, like, a year in max. It might have been the first six months. We're like, we have to figure out how to get back on Meta for advertising. You know? It's it's the lifeblood of our our business, of our community to bring in new people. So we started a new page called ipl.community, and that in and of itself, I think, led itself to maybe looking like a bit of a scam because the amount of my friends or members that have messaged me saying, hey, guys. This is all your content, but it's not inplayLIVE. Is this you? Do you want me to report this? Right? And I'm sure some people just also automatically reported it.

Andrew Pace [00:49:21]:

But the way Meta works is the page that you advertise from has to be attached to essentially, like, a person or an entity of some kind. So IPL community got attached to me, Andrew Pace, my Facebook page my personal Facebook page. And, we really didn't have any issues. It's been years. So from from that point forward, whether six months in, one year in approximately, that's when it was. We've advertised through that IPL community. We've definitely had a couple of things where it's like this ad's rejected for this reason. You know, you couldn't you can't say that, but you can say this.

Andrew Pace [00:49:53]:

So, you know, we've had people trying to work with us, help us. You know, Meta calls me every week. I don't pick up, but, you know, they're they're the we're we're a part of their ecosystem in a big way. And then, yeah, it was, last last week. They they just basically shut everything down with no appeal whatsoever. So, obviously, just there's enough reports of of, you know, it being a scam from people or people saying, you know, it's tipsters or or whatever, that Facebook saw enough of it and said that, you know, we're in violation. And, yeah, my personal page just gone. So that that's that's the story.

Andrew Pace [00:50:27]:

Now you're talking about Facebook being our roots. Our entire business was on Facebook. It's where we advertised. It's where our community was. We didn't have Discord. We live streamed from from Facebook. And now, obviously, it's come full circle where there's absolutely no reason for us whatsoever to be using that platform. We didn't need to be using it anymore, but it was just kinda I don't know.

Andrew Pace [00:50:44]:

It was kinda like a nostalgia thing for us. But, yeah, it's it's done.

Shane Mercer [00:50:49]:

So, any any sort of where do you go from here? Is that even a concern? Kinda like, you know, are you saying, like, where we don't even need it, or it was like you said it was more nostalgia than anything, or it did do you do you need to pivot in any kind of way?

Andrew Pace [00:51:02]:

Oh, huge pivots. Yeah. Like, we're not advertising at all. We advertise through YouTube for a good couple of years. The the meta, the meta algorithm or system is much more effective at finding guys like you, Shane, than, the YouTube one was. So we actually pulled YouTube. We could advertise on YouTube tomorrow. We could start that system back up.

Andrew Pace [00:51:21]:

And and maybe there is a time and a place where we we do, you know, give that a shot again to an extent. But, yeah, Meta was far superior. You know, we've we've touched base on this. Like, we switched our pricing to annual. I'll say it again. If anyone is listening to this and they're uncomfortable with the pricing changes, just reach out. We've gotten three or four people in in the last two weeks where they didn't pay annually. So we can always work with you and have a discussion with you.

Andrew Pace [00:51:46]:

But we switched to annual payments, because we want the right customers. A lot of the marketing and messaging that's out there, it is generally gonna lead to someone that, you know, is maybe a quick sale that isn't a long term person. So we have an established community. We have a niche community. It definitely isn't what it was. We're not gonna see a ton of new members pour in ever again because that's not the system that we're running anymore. And, yeah, no. We're we're good.

Andrew Pace [00:52:13]:

As far as, like, pivots go, just mostly organic, content, like things like this. We don't have a huge following on this podcast, but if you watch this and you don't think we're legitimate, then I think you're nuts. Right? You know? I'd ask you why the hell you're listening

Shane Mercer [00:52:27]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:52:28]:

Anymore. You know? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely some pivots, a lot more organic stuff, and, yeah, just just keep plugging away. And and the other thing too is, like, brand awareness, market awareness. Like, at bet bash last year.

Andrew Pace [00:52:41]:

I'm not some I'm not spanky where everyone knows who he is, but definitely some people knew who I was and were aware of us that, I had never met or had never been in the community. And there's also people that had been in the community and currently were in the community. Some that said it was amazing and can't wait to get back. None that came and wanted to punch me in the face that I knew of. And, and and definitely some happy members that are still with us today, and then, obviously, new members that joined, that are still with us to to today. So, you know, we're a little bit more established now. People know who we are. They know what we do, and, and they either see the value in it long term or they don't.

Shane Mercer [00:53:17]:

Yeah. Well, you know, anybody who who investigates it really thoroughly, I'm sure will see the value long term. And chances are if you're listening to this podcast, you you you you know, chances are you at least seen it and thought about exploring it if you haven't, joined our community and and coming back with us, live yet. And and we definitely encourage you to to to try it. If you've made it this far into the show, listening on a regular basis and even just this episode alone if you've made it this far, it's it's probably worth it. Alright, Pace. Anything else on this topic? Or is that it? Are we done for this week?

Andrew Pace [00:53:49]:

On oh, on this topic, no. But I do wanna bring up since it is March. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:53:54]:

Yes.

Andrew Pace [00:53:55]:

March Madness is upon us. We are in the middle of the first week of conference tournaments. Next week will be the second week of conference tournaments. And then, of course, we'll have selection Sunday, and we will have the tournament March Madness. Our we will have a March Madness bracket, coming out. That's obviously a really exciting time. That and our survivor pool are usually the two biggest contests that we run. But we are running that pinnacle contest.

Andrew Pace [00:54:18]:

So we are now, you know, twenty five days or so before we do our giveaway of that $1,000 USD Pinnacle top up into your account. All you have to do to enter is make sure you have an account. To get an account, you go to pinnacle.com/inplaylive. You sign up. That's number one. Number two, you have to join our free Discord community. And number three, just send me a screenshot of a wager that you've placed at Pinnacle of your entire account that is at least $10, And, then you will be entered for that $1,000, prize that I think Shane will will give away on the podcast.

Shane Mercer [00:54:56]:

Here on the podcast. Let's give it away here on the podcast. And it's only, like, a month away, less than a month away because it'll be at the March, right, or April.

Andrew Pace [00:55:04]:

April April whatever the episode is after April 1.

Shane Mercer [00:55:07]:

Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. That'll be fun. Looking forward to to to giving away some money to to, somebody out there. One of you out there in the audience, gonna get a thousand dollars USD added to your pinnacle bankroll. That's pretty fucking sweet. I gotta say.

Shane Mercer [00:55:21]:

And, yes, this is March. I love March. I can't wait to talk about some more hoops over the next, couple of weeks, and we'll really dive into to college basketball in a more, meaningful way. Alright. Well, Pace, with that, lot of fun. Till next week.

Andrew Pace [00:55:35]:

With Ryan Hammer.

Shane Mercer [00:55:37]:

With Ryan Hammer. Oh, can't wait. That's gonna be awesome. Guys, stay tuned for that. This guy was incredible last time we had him, and I can't wait to talk to him again. Alright. See you.

Andrew Pace [00:55:47]:

Cheers.

Shane Mercer [00:55:48]:

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code BEHINDTHELINES.