Episode 67

Tyler Amirault [00:00:00]:

We were we were a much smaller company. So if he got to the $10, 000 30:30 day prize, we would have been sweating a little bit. We were Oh, shit. Watching the game. Watching the game. We were we were watching the games that, he was picking on and kind of rooting for the other team.

Shane Mercer [00:00:25]:

Welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the only sports betting podcast purifying the sports betting industry. Remember to like, download, subscribe, and follow us on all the socials @inplayLIVE. On today's show, we just have a whole bunch of hot takes. We'll get to that in a moment. I'm your O'Shea Mercer as always joined by Andrew Pace, founder of inplayLIVE, a community of like minded sports bettors dedicated to long term success. And we're very excited to welcome to the show the team from Hot Takes, Tyler Amaro, CEO, James White, cofounder and COO, and Kevin Jing, chief financial officer. Guys, welcome to the show. Great to have you all.

Tyler Amirault [00:01:03]:

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Excited to be here. Yeah.

James White [00:01:06]:

Yeah. Really appreciate it.

Shane Mercer [00:01:07]:

Awesome, guys. Yeah. Welcome. Welcome. So I I've downloaded the app today, and I'm just getting familiar with hot takes. And I've checked out your Instagram, which is, pretty cool and a lot of fun to kind of, scroll through and and enjoy. But explain to everybody out there what is hot takes, how does it work. I'll throw it out to the CEO over to Tyler.

Tyler Amirault [00:01:25]:

For sure. Yeah. So Hot Takes is trying to solve this problem of onboarding in, in sports betting. We're trying to offer is just to newbies is, a free to play game where you can come and kind of, like, paper trade, but for sports betting. So, like, the dream is to offer this environment where, like, people can come on, try out sports betting for the first time. Usually, we're targeting, like, beginners. You come on, we we'll give you pick tokens every day, and you get to use those to make wagers and practice a little bit. And when you win, we actually give you real money.

Tyler Amirault [00:01:55]:

So that's kind of the the concept. We're en route to that, that destination. Right now, we have a a kind of precursor to that live in Ontario. But, yeah, Hot Takes is trying to solve this problem of of onboarding newbies in the space. We also, in Ontario, we do a lot of social media work as well, and we we, we do some live events as well.

Shane Mercer [00:02:17]:

Okay. I gotta ask then. How does it work? I come on. I can make picks. I don't use any real money, but if my picks wins, you're you're gonna

Tyler Amirault [00:02:26]:

pay me? Yeah. You got it. That's that's the idea. So we're trying to we we kinda thought a lot about how, you know, when someone signs up for or or Netflix, typically, like, our generation, you know, Gen z, they prefer free trials when they're getting into something like that, or they're gonna be spending money on a regular basis. So we wanna offer a free trial, you know, like, the ability to to really practice and experience that winning feeling, but without staking your actual money. And you're probably wondering what the business model is there. Yes. And I can say that, at the end of the day, you know, sports betting operators really care about retention and acquisition.

Tyler Amirault [00:03:03]:

So that's the problem we're trying to solve, is is, being this space for newbies to come in and experience, sports betting, and and you potentially turn someone that was hesitant, not really sure about being a sports bettor, into someone that has some confidence, and actually understands some of these concepts that take a little longer, like, you know, spreads, parlays, how do you read American odds? You know? It took me a while when I first got into it. So we're trying to be that teacher in that place where it's it's safe. You can come in and and test the waters. Right.

Shane Mercer [00:03:34]:

Okay. I gotta ask, though. So if you're gonna give me free money, how much am I going to get for my bets? Like like, I gotta I gotta have some sort of sense here. If I'm gonna come and make some picks there, and my picks are gonna be winners, how much are you gonna pay me out, and how is that gonna work?

Tyler Amirault [00:03:48]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. So, like, right now, the model we have that's live, the app is street based. So every day, you make your picks. And if you get them right consecutive days in a row, you can grow your street. Now the the vast majority of the prizes we sent out have been gift cards ranging from 25 to we've even sent out a couple, like, $250 gift cards. But when I say a couple, I mean a couple.

Tyler Amirault [00:04:08]:

Usually, people are winning smaller 25, $50 Uber Eats gift cards, you know, or or Airbnb or or whatever floats their boat. But, typically, it is it is smaller, and and and the prizes are a little harder to to win. When we graduate to the states, which is is coming at some point, late this year, it's gonna be, region dependent, but you you you will be able to win if you play consistently, you know, 5 to 20, $50 a month. It'll depend a lot on, you know, whether you know what you're talking about and and your picks are hitting or not. But, but, yeah, it'll be it'll be somewhere in that range.

Shane Mercer [00:04:45]:

Okay, really interesting there. Who do you guys use for for an odds provider, or how do you source your odds?

Tyler Amirault [00:04:53]:

Yeah. We we actually have a couple providers. The main 1 we're working right now is, Sports Data IO, which I'm guessing you're familiar with.

Shane Mercer [00:05:00]:

Yes. Yeah. Definitely heard of them. So that's your main source of odds. That's where that's where you're getting your your data feed from. Okay. I'm gonna throw it over to James. James, as a cofounder, where did this idea come from, you know, and and why did you think something like this was was needed in the space or would be successful in your space?

James White [00:05:20]:

Yeah. No. Great question there, Shane. It's really funny. So Ty and I actually lived together at university. So, the great idea how it started was it was COVID and we're in 2nd year university. So, both Guy and I have known each other since high school, so since grade 9. We've known Kevin since kinda first year university, so we've all been pretty good good friends for quite a while now.

James White [00:05:39]:

But, yeah, it was a COVID year. We were all, like, in our living room and, very entrepreneurial. We all did business or engineering at school, and, I'd actually worked, for a marketing agency called Falt XE. And, on the agency, my real goal in the account I was working with was PointsBet Canada, that was, like, recently becoming legal in Ontario. So, I basically had worked and helped them, create a strategy, help them, like, actually launch in Ontario. And with that, I learned a lot more about the Ontario, gaming market and just general North American sports gaming market. We saw those becoming legalized, in Ontario and that it has been legalized in, the US for quite some time. And, as a big kinda diehard sports fan who hasn't fallen, like, the Leafs and, both NHL, NBA, NFL for my whole life, Anything with sports was really exciting to me.

James White [00:06:25]:

So I kinda came back from that internship learning a lot about the industry and, yeah, we are all big sports fans and also big kind of sports betting fans. We obviously knew it was like a new market that we'd love to eventually explore and get into. And, the biggest thing for us is, like, really understanding, you know, as sports fans, we kinda understood the lingo and the jargon when it comes to sports betting. So we knew what a parlay was. We knew what the different odds were, but it's not intuitive. We understood it wasn't that intuitive to to different people. And being a university student, the disposable income isn't usually there. Typically, with disposable income as a student, you only have a few bucks you wanna throw away.

James White [00:07:02]:

You know, you're not really working during the school year. You wanna try and save up as much as possible, and, the money you do spend is going towards your basic necessities. So we kinda thought to ourselves, it'd be really cool to kinda create some sort of platform where you can still make free picks, but win prizes for your free pick knowledge. So that was the original idea. As people kind of insecting you who are 19, 20 years old do, we kinda got right onto it and tried to actually create this idea. We were lucky that Ty was obviously doing software engineering, and was, you know, really interested in in, mobile development. So he kinda said like, hey. Let me give it a shot, see what I can do.

James White [00:07:37]:

Although he's never had any experience really doing that before, and he basically self taught it. And then on get on on my side, kinda didn't want more market research and seeing what we can actually do on a legal front and, very much almost a school project, a little bit of something that was like a passion project, that we didn't really foresee becoming anything close to a reality or, a full time job. But, slowly as we grew, obviously, the market grew too. We got very lucky.

Shane Mercer [00:08:02]:

Right. Okay. I wanna come over to Kevin now because I I'm still a bit stuck on on the business model side of things. And and, Kevin, since you're chief financial operator, I wanna get I wanna sort of dig in to dig into this a little bit with you here. If I you know, I can download the app for free. I'm using it for free. I can follow you on Instagram, obviously, for free. But if if my if my picks are going to win, you're gonna pay me out something, and you got prizes for everybody.

Shane Mercer [00:08:28]:

How are you turning a profit long term on this? How or or what is the path to profitability with a with a business like this?

Kevin Jing [00:08:35]:

Yeah. That's a great question, Shane. And quite frankly, when we first launched, in October 2022, our app, we're getting a lot of users. We didn't really find a way to monetize them. And, eventually, we stumbled upon the affiliate model. So we realized that, you know, our app serves as a great stepping stone towards an actual valuable user for sportsbook. As Ty alluded to earlier, we find that free trials are really strong in this industry. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of struggle that comes into getting a user to sign up from a sportsbook's perspective.

Kevin Jing [00:09:08]:

There's a lot of KYC that they have to go through. There's a lot of learning that they have to go through. And what we find our generation is that if a user hasn't done the motions before, they're most likely to not make it through all the steps to sign up, which is why sportsbooks are willing to pay good CPA deals to affiliates like us to help onboard users and get them through the process. So what we found is on top of the app, we also host a whole suite of digital assets. So that's where our social media ties in, our tutorials that we post, you know, our our in person activations. This whole suite of assets we have in Ontario really serves to have multiple touch points with all of our users and get them really comfortable with not only us, hot takes as a brand, but also trusting us to be that guiding hand towards them into this, into the sports betting world. So, from that perspective, how we monetize is our books will pay us a upfront fee or sometimes a hybrid deal where they offer us a share of the revenue for the users that we bring on through specific links.

Shane Mercer [00:10:11]:

Right. Got it. Okay. So you're using you're going the the affiliate route as sort of your main path, to to generating, revenue. Okay. That that makes a little more sense now. Okay. I wanna ask then about the tools that you're offering and, you know, how people access them and what exactly are you offering when it comes to sports betting education? Because, you know, Pace and I are are pretty well versed in this space, especially, PACE and and everything that we sort of offer over at at inflight live.

Shane Mercer [00:10:40]:

And I wanna get a sense of what are you guys offering when it comes to this, a space of tools, resources, and education and that kind of thing. And, you know, whoever you think is best to answer the question, please jump in and go ahead. Cool.

Tyler Amirault [00:10:50]:

So, yeah, we have a a social media team that works to, like, post clips, and and, you know, we'll do, typical sports content stuff. So we'll post, like, you know, you know, picks of the day, parlay of the day, and our our, content team will work on explaining, like, what that means and walking through, like, how they came to to some of those picks. So through social media, you know, we'll have a number of those. And we also have a TikTok too, where we post a lot of those. Now, also, on on our app, we have a tutorial page that'll kinda walk you through, like, what's know, what's a spread? How do I read this? You know, how do I read the odds? How do I think about making these picks? And then we also, on our website, have a sportsbook ranking page. We find that a lot of the time, like, there's a number of different dimensions where people will kinda look towards different sportsbooks. So, you you know, some people might really get frustrated by, like, the the withdraw process and the depositing process. So we'll rank the sportsbooks on on that that facet.

Tyler Amirault [00:11:44]:

Sometimes they want more features and more markets. Sometimes people want less features. They want a really simple, easy to easy to read interface that's a little more intuitive. So we'll rank them on on that. You know? So sometimes, like, different books work work better for different people. So we'll try to help people find the right book for them and what they're looking for. You know, not everyone needs, you know, like, 20 different leagues and, you know, every every different kind of player prop, you know, that's that's out there. Sometimes, you you beginners, they just want the the main lines.

Tyler Amirault [00:12:14]:

They're not gonna be making, like, you know, multi game, parlays and stuff like that. So so, yeah, we really try to to introduce people to the concept slowly. Our old app focused on, point spreads, which we thought was, like, 1 of 1 of the the main concepts that you really have to wrap your head around when you're first starting out, and and trying to explain, like, what the negative and and positive mean in in that way. And the the new app, we're we're focusing on adding player props and game totals as, like, the next, evolution in that process and then also explaining, our parlay. And we're using, like, visuals to kinda show, you know, how the the odds get multiplied together. We're using, like, a variation on decimal odds because we find it a bit easier to to to get the the first time you get into it. But we we really think that, like, explaining how parlays work is is, is pretty key, and and trying to teach also trying to teach users to to kind of budget their their payroll. That's why we're switching to this, in game currency model versus streak model, because I do think that, like, we've noticed at at university a lot of friends that would get frustrated because they would kinda blow through all the money they had for sports betting in in 1 night.

Tyler Amirault [00:13:23]:

But that's that's really not what you want. Right? You you you wanna, as a as a long term sports bettor, build the the muscle of, okay. Like, I wanna spend this much this month. You know, this is my budget. And, if I if I win, great. But, how do I make that last over this event, this event, this event. Right? So, yeah, we wanna kinda teach that, like, actually working with a bankroll. That's why we're switching to this, this, like, token based model.

Tyler Amirault [00:13:47]:

Yeah. We're always working and and and and talking to people like you guys to to hear feedback and and and looking for more ideas to incorporate, responsible gaming. But I know James is also launching an initiative, to get some more tutorial videos posted because those have done pretty well when we when we have tried them.

James White [00:14:03]:

To add to Ty's point right there, I think any way to make responsible gaming education exciting is our big goal here. So we understand that sometimes, to our demographic, gen z as kinda Ty mentioned, really trying to appeal to making responsible gaming, quote, unquote, sexy and, you know, really try to have people prioritize that and understand that education and and that aspect of of sports gaming gaming in general, is pivotal and really, really important. So, by having different really exciting videos that, you know, obviously, gen z loves short form content videos, so we wanna make sure, we can appeal to that and have those different short form contents out, but also making it kind of exciting and more interesting. So, the big thing for our company is getting a lot more responsible gaming focused and having different, you know, Instagram pages, for entertainment and kinda sports clubs, but all also very much for education and, responsible gaming. So, we have that and different resources on our website and on our, on our app, basically giving you different helplines and really trying to kinda show you, resources available for you to learn more about responsible gaming and just overall about limits and what you should be comfortable playing with.

Shane Mercer [00:15:05]:

I gotta ask, you know, because this this this term responsible gaming, responsible wagering, responsible gambling, whatever you wanna call it, it tends to mean different things to different people. And that's kind of something that that we're starting to sort of realize. And, you know, it I know it means 1 thing to Pace and I. It means something very different to the sportsbooks and operators out there. It means something different to the regulators, you know, across the various, jurisdictions as, you know, this sort of becomes, you know, normalized across North America. So I wanna ask, like, what does responsible wagering, responsible gaming mean to you guys?

Tyler Amirault [00:15:42]:

Yeah. I I can start. You know, it makes me think of, I was talking to to Paris Smith actually, a couple months ago, and she said something that really stuck to me. She was talking about how, like, it actually is in so people think of of responsible gaming education sometimes as, like, oh, it's an extra thing to to invest into if you're an operator in the industry. It's kind of, like, tangential, but she was actually mentioning how it's it's actually in the operator's best interest for for bettors to to to be to be educated on responsible gaming. And what does that mean? Personally, I think it means, you know, being able to manage a bank role, 1st and foremost, but also, you know, putting money on things that that that are good value. You know? And I think you guys could probably talk a lot to that. But there are different kinds of bets when it comes to value.

Tyler Amirault [00:16:29]:

And, you know, people our age sometimes will, not all the time, but sometimes will, put a bunch of money on, like, very, very high payout parlays that a lot of the time, you you know, you're giving the book a huge margin there, and the books love that. But at the end of the day, you know, you if you wanna be in it for the long run, you you you have to be hitting some of the some of those parlays. So at the end of the day, we we you know, books do want users that are winning sometimes because if they don't, they're not gonna stay. Right? And they're not gonna be a bettor for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years. So it actually is in an operator's best interest for their for their their users to be, like, educated in the sense that they can manage a bankroll and that they're winning. Right? You know, you want someone that's gonna be there for the long term. So you want someone that that is, you know, their their bankroll is going up and down, but they are still experiencing that feeling of, okay, like, we hit today. You know, we gotta pay out.

Tyler Amirault [00:17:25]:

So that that's that's my take on it.

Shane Mercer [00:17:28]:

That that that's interesting. Okay. I'll I'll say this. Sportsbooks don't want me there for the long term, and they definitely don't want pace there for the long term. And we we get booted off books regularly. So I we gotta ask that, you know, what are your thoughts on on limiting and and what, you know, sportsbooks are doing in that space, especially since you're going down the sort of affiliate route in terms of your your your path to profitability.

James White [00:17:51]:

Yeah. I think limiting is important. I I've heard of many people who kind of said the same thing to me that they get kicked off sportsbooks pretty often because they have, incredibly high ED, like, betting, and they have, good picks that typically win. I think limiting's a normal factor. I think if there's a way to kinda beat the book, and, obviously, there's a lot of different, people we see out there, different conferences and different, just connections and networking events that have platforms basically entirely around beating operators odds and and finding ways to kinda arbitrage and, find, like, a a basically an a competitive advantage or an advantage over them. So it makes sense. I I think that there's it's it's important, but I think, there you know, that is a bit of a niche group. I think there are a lot of people who still love their, quote, unquote, centipedes where they, have long long long parlays that maybe aren't the best value and bang for buck as we say.

James White [00:18:38]:

So I think it's also important on both sides. A, limiting people who are trying to, like, take advantage of the sportsbook and of the different deals, makes sense. You gotta kinda protect your, you know, your company and and, make sure people aren't exploiting you too much. But I think at the same time, there are people who will lose a lot of money consistently as well and don't know and chase the winnings. We see often people, you know, maybe win a parlay, and will lose all that money they want on the parlay and the casino later on. So, there's both sides of it, both people who are, taking advantage of it in the right way and people who are being taken advantage of. So I think limiting them in either way, is good for both the book, but also good for your players. You wanna make sure you're not necessarily taking advantage over people.

Kevin Jing [00:19:17]:

Mhmm. And on this note, I think what we've seen is there's, like, a divergence of players in terms of what value they find they get out of sports betting. So as James is alluding to, 1 group of people such as YouTube are getting monetary value from it, or at least they're seeking the monetary value. They believe that there's arbitrage opportunities. There's EV betting. There's boosts. There's ways to extract as much values again from the sportsbooks. But I think what we've seen is there's also this vast majority of players that gets the value from making sports more exciting.

Kevin Jing [00:19:50]:

For a lot of people, when they have something at stake on this sports game, whether it's a particular outcome or a particular player, you know, doing something, it makes them more invested in the game, and it makes the game more fun and engaging with them. And I think that, to us, is the route we're trying to focus down on is this segment of users, which we find can be the majority of people. And I think when it how it all ties back into responsible gaming is we want to really hold hands with the people going down this path and show them that, hey. At the end of the day, you know, you won't be positive sports betting. But if you view it as, you know, a subscription fee, essentially, to make all of your sports more exciting and to make you that much more engaged in the game and just a better fan, then it's worth it. Right? Because a lot of people pay so much for sports and just to stream it, just to be engaged with it. Why not have this extra little bit of spend so that you're super invested in it and that, you know, you can cheer even harder than you have before? That's the path that we've seen, sportsbooks kind of appreciate because those are the users that will bring them the long term value. But, I think it's interesting the psychology behind Bettors and what they're really seeking to to gain out of the sportsbooks.

Shane Mercer [00:21:09]:

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right that that the sportsbooks certainly want more of those players that are there, strictly for the entertainment purposes as opposed to, trying to, you know, make a profit off of them long term. Back to the idea of of responsible, gaming tools. It sounds like, you know, you guys talked a little bit about how to read the odds, you know, decimal system versus American odds and and parlays and how those, you know, you know, have a negative expected value over time and and, how to make them and what the spreads mean and sort of all of that is very sort of rudimentary, especially for our audience. You know, that's sort of, like, you know, bare bones. Like, that's like, you know, somebody who's never bet on sports before at all. Do you have anything, or are you planning to offer anything that would appeal to, somebody who has been betting on sports for a long time and is perhaps looking to take it to the next level or wants to be profitable long term?

Tyler Amirault [00:22:07]:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's kind of what we're working on in in our newest product. So, what we're trying to do is is is on top of have it be, you know, a little elementary in how we we, you know, show you the how to how to read odds and and and make parlays. We also wanna do is have profiles where you're you're showcasing your results, and you you we're gonna have a concept called, like, a a heat rating. So you can see, you know, who is performing, over the long term, and how how consistently are they hitting their their picks. Right? So this is gonna be a kind of a social system where you can, like, hold your friends accountable if they're, you know, they're talking up and and acting like they they're they're hitting everything. Now you can go on and you can see their actual performance.

Tyler Amirault [00:22:47]:

And and, you know, there'll be boosts associated with, and profile boosts associated with with being hot. But this is a way that you can actually see Ken somewhat hit, like, hit consistently, because at the end of the day, you know, everyone's gonna have the same bankroll, but people will will win vastly different amounts of of of coins, we call them. So, so, yeah, the the idea is really to create a social community where, like, people are being held accountable. And you and if if you claim to be so good, you know, come and and, test it against against reality and test it against your peers.

Tyler Amirault [00:23:17]:

Thats what were trying to build. This is this this, kind of social environment where you can, you can learn and and and and practice, and also showcase how good you are. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:23:29]:

Yeah. Okay. That that's sounds pretty cool. Do those tokens have any sort of actual value, real world value?

Tyler Amirault [00:23:36]:

Yeah. So so the tokens themselves, no. And 1 1 of the key things, you know, we've kind of thought about is is should can users buy tokens? And what we're thinking is no. So everyone's gonna have the same bankroll. Everyone's starting from the same place. But when you if you hit a pick, you'll be rewarded in coins, and coins are convertible to cash. So coins do have value.

Shane Mercer [00:23:58]:

Okay. Interesting. That that's a that's a cool concept. You know, looking to see, what that looks like when it rolls out. I wanna ask you guys about about regulation kind of across, across, North America because it's it is so, you know, different depending on where you are, and I wanna know sort of how it kind of, impacts what you guys are doing or if it does and and how. But, you know, you mentioned Paris Smith earlier. Big shout out to Paris who we had on the show a couple of weeks ago, and I encourage all of our audience members to go have a listen to that episode if you haven't yet. But former CEO of, of Pinnacle, and she shares a lot of her sort of ideas on on the current state of regulation and how it's kind of shifting and changing.

Shane Mercer [00:24:37]:

But I'm curious, where where do you sort of see this product fitting into the landscape, and, you know, how how does sort of regulation impact that position?

Tyler Amirault [00:24:47]:

Yeah. Yeah. I can start with some thoughts and then throw it over to to the guys if they wanna wanna add something. I think 1 of the key things that we love about this idea of, like, onboarding and retention is, you know, a lot of bettors want a reason to be loyal to to to 1 book or another. You know, limiting might be 1 reason why, you know, certain people don't like a book and and like another book. But there's there's a lot of reasons. But sometimes books can be a bit commoditized. And I think, you know, there's nothing wrong with giving people giving some some rewards back to loyal users.

Tyler Amirault [00:25:16]:

I think loyalty is great. And I think, you know, rewarding loyalty makes complete sense in in in the gaming market. You know? There obviously is a line where, you know, inducement can go too far. But what we're really excited about is is some using some new tech to allow users to link their betting accounts, and then we can get insights into how much they're betting and what they're betting on. And we like the idea of being able to reward them, you know, for showing loyalty to different books. That gives us a lot of, you know, helps us provide value to our to our customers and our and our clients. You know, we we see it as a win win. Now there there are lots of regions where, you know, for whatever reason, the inducement laws don't you know, would say you can't do that, and that's fine.

Tyler Amirault [00:25:56]:

You know? Obviously, like, different regions will operate differently. But to us, we do think that as long as you don't the line on the on the inducement front for a new player, there's nothing wrong with rewarding people for for showing that loyalty.

Shane Mercer [00:26:09]:

Okay. Interesting. So so focused on on loyalty and book loyalty. I wish I could stay loyal to some of those soft books. They just won't allow it. Believe me.

Andrew Pace [00:26:19]:

I'd be the as loyal as they come.

Shane Mercer [00:26:24]:

Yeah. But, Paste, you know, there are books that we can be loyal to. Imagine having your pinnacle linked to something like this. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:26:30]:

Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:26:32]:

Yeah so I always look at I've there's a few new ideas out there that I've heard about floating in the industry, new businesses, etcetera. And I know, like, if you just take, like, something like Oz Jam as an example, there's always the challenge of, like, the actual linking process, you know, and there's, like, companies, like, that will help track your wagers as well, which is, we talk about responsible gambling. I think at at, like, its most elementary form, tracking your wagers is, probably the single most responsible thing that you can do that, of course, is not offered by any of the sportsbooks. Can I see my wagers after I made them? Yes. That has to be readily apparent to me. Can I export them? Can I categorize them? Not at all. Right? Some books can offer your your your loss or win or loss profile over a certain, you know, time frame. And the challenge then becomes actually, of course, making that link.

Andrew Pace [00:27:32]:

You know? And then the other side of that challenge is sportsbooks are always looking for a reason to either keep the money that you have in your account and not having it withdrawn so that it continues to get played with, or actually finding a reason not to pay you. And 1 of the biggest reasons would be connected to technology. So, you know, oh, you were using said services that whether it's VPNs, whether it's an actual bot placing the wagers for you on your behalf, which I know a site like Pinnacle does, allow to an extent, that'll be a reason for another sportsbook not to pay you. Right? So then when you go link your profile with these sportsbooks, it has to be obviously a a scenario where the player isn't punished for it and that the sportsbook actually allows that to happen. And then once that happens, like, once that link is made, that's where you can really do some special things. Right? Like, you can show people, tremendous levels of detail in their wagers. So, James, you were talking about the lottery parlays, the lottery parlay culture and how big it is. And you said guys your age, It's it's not guys your age.

Andrew Pace [00:28:48]:

You guys are a part of it, but it's the industry as a whole. Right? It's it's psychology of a human being. You know, just adding 1 more pick onto it and and the balance doubling or the the theoretical payout doubling. Meanwhile, your expected loss just doubled as well, with with the the the the house edge, just compounded further. Right? So, like, your ability to achieve that could be such an amazing, differentiator. I know some people are doing it already, but could be an amazing differentiator where, obviously, you know, you have this system that you guys have built where you can bet for free. So take out the affiliates and all that stuff. Like, take take that out.

Andrew Pace [00:29:29]:

You can bet for free, and I know the affiliates allow you to then be able to give them something for a winning bet. Like, you can bet for free, win something on the other side, but also show your profile. So showing your profile might be the single most valuable thing. You know, you see all over social media, whether it's a ladder challenge, whether it's a tipster, whatever the case may be, they share you their profile on hot takes, and it's like, here's my win percentage. Here's my biggest streak, like, all that kind of stuff. And then actually attach that to a sports book and categorize everything. Data is king in this industry on the winning side of it. So, again, we not might not be talking about your, your target client.

Andrew Pace [00:30:12]:

Right? But on the winning side of things, data is king. And when it comes to responsible betting and some of the education things that you guys are trying to accomplish, I think that could be a real game changer if you could you could successfully make that link. And and at the same time, like, from the standpoint of the affiliate side. So you go, okay. Here's our here's our, our product. Here's our ideal customer, and then here are clients that are the sportsbooks that work with us. Once once you're able to successfully log in through someone's account and can show the sportsbook the data, and they can see the data of your players and everything that's come in. And it is a positive relationship for for both of you guys.

Andrew Pace [00:30:52]:

That's where you can obviously then take that to to the next sports book and show them what you've done for that that previous sports books. And and then that allows the player to have data not just at FanDuel, but at FanDuel and DraftKings 365 and Pinnacle, and the list goes on and on. And then that's where, like, people like us come in and go, oh, shit. What do we do? We just got a bunch of winning players. But people like us come in and go, wow. There's real value here. Not only are we wagering through these guys where, you know, we get a gift card or some tokens that we can redeem for cash or whatever case may be, which even if you're losing on those bets, those bets have positive expected value because you're not losing money, and potentially getting it on the winning side. That that's cool.

Andrew Pace [00:31:32]:

Right? And that can provide the thrill and that entertainment that you guys are referencing without actually taking the financial risk. So, like, that stuff's really like, that's that's cool. Also, of course, bridging the gap where you go, hey. You know, you wanna bet, but you don't wanna risk your money and you wanna learn how to do it. Come do it here. Yeah. Those those are definitely really nice bridges, but I think that, you know, down the road, if the those are some of the goals that you guys can put together, which sounds like, you know, you really, really definitely are looking at some of those things. I think that could be a really freaking cool product.

Tyler Amirault [00:32:03]:

Yeah. And just to jump in there on something you said, I mean, you were talking a little bit about about how, like, books don't necessarily some books don't necessarily love people linking accounts and, like, you know, giving login credentials to an external service. And we thought about talked about it a bit. And and, you know, over the long term, like, I I really hope that changes, you know, and I I think it will. Like, I I think that, you know, these books have a have a good reason to to to, you know, be hesitant about letting, you know, third party services log in on behalf of users. But over the long term, like, III really hope that the free market plays out and you see that, you know, users naturally gravitate towards books that are more in favor of these tools. At the end of the day, like, it it is about creating experience for the user, and I hope the books that that welcome that more than the ones that don't are the ones that win the day.

Andrew Pace [00:32:50]:

So Tyler, let me ask you something. Have you guys had sportsbooks? Have you asked sportsbooks about this already where they have said no to you?

Tyler Amirault [00:32:58]:

We haven't directly, but we've heard of other people who have and haven't had dealt dealt with diff difficulties, just like trying to get an integration working.

Tyler Amirault [00:33:08]:

We we use, like, a API service that helps us do that linking on on our behalf.

Andrew Pace [00:33:13]:

Okay. And this is another like, you're a client of this company that allows you to do that.

Tyler Amirault [00:33:18]:

Exactly.

Andrew Pace [00:33:19]:

So the the issue the issue with that whole landscape is that if that door opens at a sportsbook, potentially, let's just say for you guys, is what other doors did they just open for other, like, AI type services to actually then bet. And I know, like, firsthand, so I've never ever had a wager placed for me through some sort of bot or service. I have personally never ever done that, but I've been accused of it and not been paid because of that accusation. So where things get really slippery is then if you guys are successful in that venture, which I would be so all for because then again, you get all this great data and and ease of tracking and things like that that are so powerful to winning players. But, again, not your not your target, but I think in in my my sort of terms, you know, you you you have that. And then all of a sudden that be used against you as a player not to pay you even though you didn't do anything malicious or or whatever. That that's kind of the fear that I always see as a sharp player. But, anyways, sorry.

Tyler Amirault [00:34:32]:

Yeah. I mean, hopefully, we can, you know, in our sports book reviews on our on our website, we can, you know, pay attention to that and to what books are are really being hawks about that stuff. At the end of the day, like, I I hope that, yeah, we can alert players to to where they should be careful and and, you know, direct them towards books that, you know, don't ban you for AI picks that didn't actually exist.

Andrew Pace [00:34:53]:

Right. Right. Right. So do you guys have profiles today of winning players? Like, if you have if someone what's the biggest streak you guys have seen?

Tyler Amirault [00:35:02]:

24. Okay. So 24 is the record? 24 is the record. 24 days in a row.

Andrew Pace [00:35:06]:

Yeah. Are those 24 coin flips or are those 24, like, minus 10, 000 favorites?

Tyler Amirault [00:35:12]:

24 coin flip. We try to to to get them, you know, in in a in a range around even.

Andrew Pace [00:35:17]:

Okay. So let's just call them 24 coin flips. Would then that profile be someone that someone like myself could be like, oh, I really wanna check out this guy who did went 24 times in a row. Let's see how he did the previous 24 days. Is is that all readily accessible?

Tyler Amirault [00:35:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. And on on the, the current, MVP app, you know, you can check out profiles and, you know, we'll we'll we have a leaderboard. We we feature the people that are are popping off, and that that guy did get a a little bit of a following. We we highlighted him on our Instagram and and showed off. We we were we were a much smaller company. So if he got to the $10, 000 30:30 day prize, we would have been sweating a little bit. We were watching the game.

Tyler Amirault [00:35:58]:

We would have been we were watching the games that, he was picking on and he kind of rooting for the other team. Oh. All part of the fun of it. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:36:06]:

Oh, I love it.

Shane Mercer [00:36:07]:

Yeah. Now that's the kind of stuff I want to talk aboiut.

Andrew Pace [00:36:09]:

That's awesome. Okay. So at day 30, what did he what were the milestones that he did achieve?

Andrew Pace [00:36:17]:

Where you guys did have to pay him something.

Tyler Amirault [00:36:19]:

You have to redeem it. So you have to, like, kind of, like, check out, decide to get off the train. So you can redeem for, like, you know, we we do some jerseys in in at 16 and 18. And then at 20, I think it's like a big big Bluetooth speaker. At 25, I think we had Stanley Cup tickets. Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:36:41]:

So he was one game from Stanley Cup tickets.

Tyler Amirault [00:36:43]:

Yeah. I think so.

Andrew Pace [00:36:45]:

You know what though, guys? I gotta tell you. So I understand the rationale of of being like, oh, shit. Like, we don't have $10 to pay this guy. Like, let's say he hit day 25, which he did, and he's going to the Stanley Cup on behalf of your guys' streak. All that does is motivate all the people to to get a to go on a streak and to use their use your product themselves. So, like, you know, the $10, 000 is, you know, if you couldn't pay it, that's a different story. But let's if you did have the means to pay it, you know, at the end of the day, it's a it's a positive story. And I mean, that that is what you want from your customers.

Andrew Pace [00:37:21]:

You want them playing and and winning stuff without risk. The the risk of loss, like providing like you said, providing people the thrill of the game without, the financial, risks of gambling is is is cool. So

Tyler Amirault [00:37:36]:

A 100%. Yeah. I I think we would have been fine. It was it was just, you know, it would have been material. It would have would have hurt. But I remember Kevin actually, like, when we decided to, like, kind of rebuild the app, you know, in a to a to a new level of, of, of quality and and and really expand was was when we we noticed. And Kevin pointed out that, we were letting some odds slip through, that were, you know, a little mispriced. And, you know, people were kept referring friends being like, oh my god.

Tyler Amirault [00:38:05]:

Like, these guys, you know, they're giving away free stuff and that, you know, their their odds are mispriced. We can kind of exploit this a little bit. And Kevin noticed, he's like, our our user growth is off the charts right now. Like, because they think that not only are they getting, like, a free lunch, but they're also getting 1 over on us. And people love that. And that was when we were seeing, like, massive, massive user growth. And that's what motivated us to go, okay, like, this feeling is actually really addictive for people. But you're right, like, we we, to a degree, like, we almost don't even mind mispriced odds, because we want people to win.

Tyler Amirault [00:38:36]:

That's what makes, what we're offering so exciting. So, yeah, it was a cool thing that Kevin noticed.

Andrew Pace [00:38:42]:

And then, Shane, nothing like, getting some positive expected value to get your lunch paid for for that.

Shane Mercer [00:38:47]:

Right. Exactly. Hey. I'll take a free lunch every day if I could get it. I wanna I wanna ask though because, you know, we we do live in this in this sort of space here where, paying for picks is kind of the norm out there. Right? Especially for people who do wanna win, there's a lot of paying for picks that that goes on. And, you know, I I, you know, I I don't know that it's necessarily the greatest thing, and I think that there's a lot of, shady actors in that space. And I'm kind of wondering, you know, because you are able to track people and, you know, you can identify, winning players and potentially long term winning players, will you, you know, will your will your platform, your service sort of offer those people's picks on a regular basis for free? Like, will people be able to tail that person that went 24 in a row on an ongoing regular basis if they choose to? And will there ever be any sort of cost associated with that?

Tyler Amirault [00:39:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a great question. We're we're still thinking about so we we definitely will give you the option to tail it either on hot takes on the on our app or or jump to another book. And and, you know, I think the way it would work is it would link another book to 1 of your linked books, and it would fill out your your pick slip for you. So the the tailing will be there. You know, James has talked a lot about he's talked to a lot of people that that do, like, pay for for cappers on, or on Discord. Site called?

Andrew Pace [00:40:09]:

Winible. Yeah.

Tyler Amirault [00:40:12]:

Yeah. And Dub, some some of those places. Yeah. So, like, we we know that there's a huge market for that stuff, and we hope that we could be like, what would you say? Like, a kind of a credibility rating list.

Tyler Amirault [00:40:26]:

Yeah. We could we could, you know, give give cappers more credibility, and have them reference their profile on hot takes, to justify why people should pay. And then, yeah, maybe, you know, eventually, we we we could facilitate that. We could, you know, maybe, like, pay gate some people's picks and and have it, you know, you could check out their picks, but they would ask for a fee. Right? These are all good ideas, and that's why we talk to people like you guys because you because that's definitely a a direction we could go down.

Andrew Pace [00:40:58]:

Yeah. The the model exists today. I mean, there's a lot of, handicappers on a site called winnable. Right? And you can tail them for free if they offer free picks, but then they'll also have a subscription price built into their, into their, you know, let's for lack of a better term, premium package or whatever the hell it is that people are using out there right now. But I think that I mean, whenever there's something else that exists out there that's similar to what it is that you're doing, and then you go, okay. Well, we got like what you just said, we got all these users in this big, wave of users that came in, and it's like it was because we had mispriced lines. Well, there's also another part of it. It's because you're providing an ecosystem that doesn't cost the player anything.

Andrew Pace [00:41:38]:

And as soon as you flip over to, you know, going, okay. If you want this cappers picks for x price, you have gotta ask yourself the question of what is differentiating you from the rest of the industry now, and have we just become the rest of the industry? Mhmm. And that's really important because, you know, if you mold yourself into what everyone else has become, you know, it's you're gonna find that it's hard to keep it's hard to keep swimming downstream when, the the water you've changed the direction that you're swimming in. Right? Mhmm.

Tyler Amirault [00:42:13]:

Can I can I ask, on a site like Winible, how do how do people decide who's worth the money? Do you just look at the free picks? Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:42:21]:

Well, I mean, it's it's it's the landscape that you just described. Right? It's it's where, you know, people have their records posted, and they'll post free picks and paid picks. And, a lot of, cappers will use will use that service to, to sell. Right? And and, I actually I think that it's a cool cool product. I think it's a cool service because they they're, a business that is allowing for that sort of marketplace to they've created that marketplace and infrastructure so that, people can play for for free. They can pay people, all that kind of stuff. I don't I I it's not something I spend a lot of time on, but it is something that, you know, is out there and does exist.

James White [00:43:06]:

Having the the tracking people's picks and, like, really seeing and trying to, quote, unquote, buy those, like, picks and really try and get the best EV, That'll be a very much secondary, aspect of hot takes. I think just having more features and having that be just another reason to stay on hot takes will be, attractive. I think, you know, at at at heart and at our very, like, basic premise, it'll be very much like the free pick them game. But, by having that and having people kinda get into it, again, typically, it's beginners and new bettors doing it. And I think people will kinda be interested in not quite searching for those different, you know, more advanced platforms to to track picks and having it be really easy, free to play beginner kind of focused app. But still, you know, as a beginner, you wanna say, oh, like, what's a good pick for tonight? Although I will look, you know, into dub clubs in these different platforms, it'd be cool to kinda see who's who's hot on hot takes right now. So it's more like how do beginners feel a little more understanding of of of what this can really be like. And even if they go to, the bigger, pick providers, it's a more easy way for them to just kinda check it out and and do it really easily all in 1 cohesive way.

Andrew Pace [00:44:11]:

Yeah. It also paints a picture too of a little bit of a reality. Right? Like, how you know, I don't know how many users you guys have. Is that something that you know offhand?

Tyler Amirault [00:44:19]:

I think we you know, just under 10, 000, I would say. Okay.

Andrew Pace [00:44:23]:

So let's just call let's just call it 10, 000. Right? So you got 10, 000 people, and the best guy did did 24 in a row. Like, there's also a picture of reality here. Right? Mhmm. And and that's powerful. So, if I wanna go try to, you know, get a streak going on on your site, and I've never bet before, and I'm learning what a spread is, and I'm learning what a money line is, I'm learning what a total is. And I just lost 5 in a row, and I was like, jeez. Imagine I had a $100 on each of these.

Andrew Pace [00:44:49]:

Yeah. Or I just won 5 in a row, but it was because it it's after I had just lost 5 in a row. And you you go, hey. You could you guys could have responsible gaming, where you go, okay. If I had to bet a $100 every single day on all of these picks that I made, what would my current communal of balance be? And that's where, you know, with volume, you're actually generating an expected value, whether it's positive or whether it's an expected loss, that the user actually sees based on what they've done. So winning 5 in a row might get you all excited where you're like, oh my god. I should have actual this is the classic degenerate gamblers statement. Should I should have done this, and it's after the result has occurred, which is always the like, sportsbooks love that.

Andrew Pace [00:45:52]:

Right? Because you're you've got someone who thinks they should have done something based on an event that has already happened. Right? So you picked the the Phillies to win today. That was the the your hot streak. Your hot streak's now at 5, but here's your cumulative running balance. It's still negative 200. It isn't like you just won $500. You're still down overall. And that's where the free marketplace providing this this, quote, thrill that you guys are are providing for free, you know, it isn't gonna it isn't gonna burn any houses down or cause people to lose their their mortgages or their shirts or all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Pace [00:46:33]:

So that that could be a really cool cool feature that you guys could add in there that shows shows people how they've done over the long term. But, again, separately of that, they do see other people's streaks and how long they've gone. 10, 000 people, 24 in a row. I mean, it doesn't sound that crazy anymore. You know, you think 1 out of the 10, 000 would just keep winning. Well, no. That's not the world that we live in.

Tyler Amirault [00:46:55]:

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, paper trading is is so big in finance. You know, people really, like, look to to paper trading as a as a way of, like, you know, seeing what the seeing the the picture of reality and and how people actually perform. And I think the similar mindset, you know, you paper trade, you make a ton of money, and you're like, oh, this is what I should have done. You know? But at least you get to to to see what reality looks like, and that's what we wanna do.

Tyler Amirault [00:47:17]:

You know? We we're excited by that idea and and and giving kind of sports gaming a a way to paper trade. And and, we we hope to be able to offer a ton of money and prizes. And at the end of the day, it's just figuring out how we can afford that.

Andrew Pace [00:47:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We just wanna give everything away, but we can't afford it. We're still figuring it out. I like it, guys. I like it.

Shane Mercer [00:47:39]:

So just very quickly, you know, where do you guys see this a year from now, and then where do you see yourself 5 years from now.

James White [00:47:45]:

Let me start that off, I guess. We always joke around saying a year down the road, like, who knows where we're gonna be, you know, at any direction. But I I think as far as, like, where we're really hoping to be and, obviously, you've seen some really, you know, amazing growth over the last few years, which we're really, really grateful for. But, I think in a year, we'll be a lot more established in the US. Like, we aren't, you know, really looking to launch for another, give or take, 6 months. So, you know, we'll be kind of starting us off, midway through the football season, kind of midway through NHL, NBA. But, you know, looking back into a year, I think having some initial growth that that was positive and have, a little bit sort of show for the US as far as app downloads would be ideal. And, you know, not just that, but but really showing that we can also make money from this.

James White [00:48:29]:

I think, you know, when when apps typically launch, you typically take a loss, and you you spend a lot of money on on advertising and marketing and, you you know, understand that user growth comes above any profitability. But I think in a year, it'd be nice to see some profitability and and show that our our model, is really panning out and, that we have seen some, pretty explosive growth in growth in the US. And then, you know, what I'll say is in 5 years, it'd be great to see, us in different continents too. I think, obviously, the European market and South American market are are massive, not to mention Asian market and, you know, many other markets. But I think, to go in the in in both, South America, Latin America, and Europe as well. And, you know, being a a forefront for acquisition and retention in the US too, that would be the ultimate goal.

Shane Mercer [00:49:14]:

Very ambitious. Sounds exciting. If you're ever looking for investors, I know PACE has a lot of disposable income. So yeah. Hell, man. No. This this is fantastic, though, guys. A lot of fun.

Shane Mercer [00:49:29]:

Best of luck to to the entire team at Hot Takes. And, just wanna say, thank you for for coming on the show. Where can people find you guys?

Tyler Amirault [00:49:39]:

Yeah. On Instagram, hot takes co. TikTok, same thing. And then, our website hot takes app dot com

Shane Mercer [00:49:45]:

Awesome. Good stuff, guys. Tyler Amaro, CEO, Kevin Jing, CFO, and James White, COO, all from the team at hot takes. Guys, thanks so much for coming on the show again. And to everybody out there listening to sport, listening to us, sports bettors around the world, till next week, keep beating those books. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe.

Shane Mercer [00:50:09]:

We are on YouTube, Apple, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'.