Episode 87

Welcome [00:00:00]:

You're listening to Behind the Lines, a podcast presented by inplayLIVE and powered by Pinnacle, the number one sports book where winners play and never get limited. Go to pinnacle.comforward/inplaylive to sign up and get in the game.

Nigel Eccles [00:00:16]:

And every time I've talked people through what really goes on, they're always, like, stunned. Like, it's usually people from, like, Wall Street telling, oh, you must have those credible risk management models. And I'm like, the risk management models on a lot of these books is a 50 year old guy with a stubby pencil go, well, what what's Pinnacle doing?

Shane Mercer [00:00:51]:

Welcome in. It's behind the lines powered by Pinnacle and purifying the sports betting industry. I'm your host, Shane Mercer, as always joined by that guy over there, Andrew Pace, founder and CEO of inplayLIVE, a community of like minded sports bettors dedicated to long term success. And joining us today is Nigel Echols, one of the original cofounders of FanDuel and currently the cofounder and CEO of BetHog, chairman of BetDex, a guy with more than 25 years of sports betting experience and working in the business of sports betting. He was working on betting exchanges in the early 2000 in Europe. Well, many sports bettors in North America, recreational sports bettors at least in North America, still don't even know what an exchange is. And, of course, FanDuel has come to be one of the dominant players in the North American market. Nigel, welcome to the show.

Shane Mercer [00:01:46]:

Thanks for joining us.

Nigel Eccles [00:01:47]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Shane Mercer [00:01:49]:

Really excited to have you here. But why don't we start it off, Nigel? What are you betting on?

Nigel Eccles [00:01:54]:

What do you mean?

Shane Mercer [00:01:55]:

You answer that however you want. I wanna know what are you betting on? Whether whether it's a a start up, whether it's

Shane Mercer [00:02:01]:

For fun.

Nigel Eccles [00:02:01]:

I'm betting on you know, to be honest, I'm betting on us making betting more fun and sociable. It's kinda weird. My view of the industry is offline betting, you go to a risk course, even if you go to a bookmakers office in the UK while they still exist, it's a very social experience. Online betting is kinda not like that. And I think our big bet is that, making it social is gonna be one of the next big unlocks in the industry. So that that's our kind of one of our big plays.

Andrew Pace [00:02:29]:

Nigel, just because you brought that up, it made me think about all these crypto sites that have this chat down the side, and it's just, like, going going going going. It's so fake.

Nigel Eccles [00:02:39]:

Like Oh, no. Like, a lot of that's really real.

Andrew Pace [00:02:41]:

I don't know. Like, is it multiple books people combined into 1? Because why would people just be, like, talking on this website?

Nigel Eccles [00:02:49]:

I don't know. But, like, you gotta ask them. A lot of them, like, Steak or, you know, some of those big sites, no. Those those chats are really real, and they're they're quite funny. In fact, I'll tell you, at FanDuel, when we launched back in 2009, we had FanDuel chat from very early on, and it was, a, it was a complete nightmare. Right? Like, so let me get this clear. You know, we would have people come on, and they'd have a lineup in, and then, like, and then they'd, like, they would pull out LeBron, and then they'd lose, and they're like, hey. I was told LeBron wasn't playing.

Nigel Eccles [00:03:21]:

And you're like, where? And they were like, FanDuel Chat.

Andrew Pace [00:03:25]:

Oh my

Nigel Eccles [00:03:27]:

From chat? Like and so we had we ended up there's, like, huge long list of things that you, you know, you could never say on chat, and we had to place it so much. But it was real fun. Everybody loved it, but it became too much of a nightmare to place, which is why we end up pulling it. But, no, I I love chat.

Shane Mercer [00:03:44]:

That's awesome. Okay. So you said you wanna make it more sociable. Is that what you're doing with BetHog? What is BetHog? Tell us a little bit about it. How does it work?

Nigel Eccles [00:03:55]:

Yeah. So BetHog's a crypto casino in sportsbook. What makes us different from the other 500 out there? The difference is that we are focused on investing and building our own games. So a lot of them are sort of based on sort of crash type games you'll see on, say, Stake. But the difference is with our games is, one, we're trying to build them to be much more visually fun, and the reason for that is that so many more people discover casino games through streaming, like Kik and Twitch, but the games themselves haven't changed. You go on, you see Roshtein. He's, like, streaming on Twitch. He's playing a game that I could have played, like, 10, 15, maybe even 20 years ago.

Nigel Eccles [00:04:39]:

Right? That to me is kinda crazy. The game itself should be kinda built for the audience. And then the second thing that we're doing is we're making it a lot more interactive. And so some of the games we're building is you're watching the streamer on Twitch or on Kik, You can actually get in on that game while they're playing. So we launched a game called Hogger 2 weeks ago, does exactly that. You're watching a streamer playing. You can get in on the action, actually play. Then the last thing that we're doing is we're building more games of skill.

Nigel Eccles [00:05:10]:

So DFS was a game of skill, sports betting is and should be a game of skill. Right? But no casino games outside of maybe Blackjack or games of skill. That's something we're building. And there's actually 2 of the titles we've launched are games of skill. There are chance and skill, but they are certainly games of skill, and that's that's something we're also focusing a lot on.

Andrew Pace [00:05:32]:

You're gonna have expand there. Like, what kind of skills could I apply to these games? Can we can we talk about a couple of these games?

Nigel Eccles [00:05:38]:

Yeah. Let me drop into a couple of them. So, one of the games is so if you've ever played Crash so Crash or Aviator, it's a game where, basically, a plane takes off and it crashes randomly somewhere between 1 and a 1000 ants. Right? It's

Andrew Pace [00:05:56]:

When you say, like, you've ever played, I think for Shane and I, maybe we've seen a couple of things online, but we we we don't play on this.

Shane Mercer [00:06:02]:

I have never played at an online casino.

Andrew Pace [00:06:06]:

I will say, Nigel. I will say, it it surprises me that people are doing this to the extent that they are, number 1. But number 2, I am interested if there is obviously a skill component to it. So Right. I and what you're describing is

Nigel Eccles [00:06:20]:

no skill. There's no skill in that game. K. And and this is a really good point. There are 2 markets here. There are people that play casino games. These are EV negative games, and they are doing it for entertainment. Right? Like, they're not, and then there's another audience like yourselves that would play they'll do sports betting.

Nigel Eccles [00:06:41]:

You'll do DFS. You'll do poker. You wouldn't dream of playing your casino game. Right. Right? You're just like, why would anyone ever do that? Right? You don't like, it's not even that you don't even understand why anyone would do that. And so we wanna build more games that are casino like but for that audience. And the way to do it is to bring in more skill elements. So in that game, what we've done is we've turned it into a buy in tournament.

Nigel Eccles [00:07:05]:

So, basically, you go in, you say you put in $10, you play competitively, you and we give you a $100 in play money. You then play competitively with all the other people who've bought in to see who's got the most money at the end of the round or at the end of 10 rounds. 90% of this is chance. Right? But 10% is a skill because if you go ahead say, you're you've played well early on, you're ahead. You now need to play more conservatively. If you're behind, you now need to play more aggressively. And we've seen it already in the kinda couple of months that we've been testing this is we have people who are skilled. They're beating the rake.

Nigel Eccles [00:07:43]:

The rake's, like, 1% on this, what was recently. So the rake is actually very low. So you only need to have a very small edge in order to be able to, like, to to win, you know, to beat the break.

Andrew Pace [00:07:55]:

So what you're saying so just help me understand the game itself separately at the tournament. I'm flying a plane, and I have to, take another step without crashing, and each potential step I take, I might crash.

Nigel Eccles [00:08:09]:

Yes. But it's sort of continuous. It's continuous. So it's basically

Andrew Pace [00:08:12]:

Oh I have to stop it.

Nigel Eccles [00:08:13]:

You're basically it might be at 1 a it might be at, like, 1.5x. And you're like, am I gonna take that, or am I gonna try and go for 2x?

Andrew Pace [00:08:20]:

Oh, it's like deal or no deal in a in a sense.

Nigel Eccles [00:08:22]:

It's kinda like at what point am I gonna take it? That's that's the gift.

Andrew Pace [00:08:27]:

So the game itself is chance, but the way you play the tournament would have potentially some players that could be a little bit more strategic, in in winning. And then I'm gonna assume similar to a poker tournament or a FanDuel of, like, DFS event. You know, you enter at a at a certain price, and then there is a cut that you guys take.

Andrew Pace [00:08:51]:

Right. And then from a casino standpoint, I think about it, and I go, that might then also encourage the player that did well in a play format to to try their luck.

Andrew Pace [00:09:03]:

In a casino game. Right?

Nigel Eccles [00:09:04]:

I think there's certainly people that will never go over casino games, but there'll be a lot of people who play both.

Andrew Pace [00:09:11]:

Right. So that's the tournament model for that you could really apply to any game. Is there any game itself that would be skill based?

Nigel Eccles [00:09:20]:

There's one another. So we've two titles that are that have skill, and at the other title we have is a game called Liar's Dice. Again, I don't know if you've played that one. So it's basically a bluffing game. It's actually like a very simplified version of poker. So both players roll 5 dice, and you're bidding for the number you might say so there's 10 dice in total. You might say, okay. Five twos.

Nigel Eccles [00:09:46]:

Other player either has to increase the bid or call liar. So, basically, you might call 5 twos, but you might have no twos. Right? So the other person might think, okay. Well, I must have at least 3 twos. They're gonna increase it. Then I'm gonna call liar. That one in testing, if you've got decent players, it's probably, like, 20% skill, 80% chance.

Shane Mercer [00:10:08]:

Right. Okay.

Andrew Pace [00:10:09]:

So I I think back to my days at poker, and I had, I had notes on every player. Because back in the in the poker boom, if you were playing on a bit of a niche site so, like, obviously, there was, you know, a lot of the major sites, you know, full tilt poker, party party poker. I think full tilt was the one that stole everyone's money. They were, like, you know, they everyone was sponsored by Full Tilt, and they just said they just they just fucking ran off. Right?

Nigel Eccles [00:10:34]:

Yeah. When Black Friday happened, they had, like, no money in the bank. They're like, oh.

Andrew Pace [00:10:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's interesting. So I I played at a site called Hollywood Poker, and I didn't know this. It actually it it took me a little bit of of, I guess, market shopping for new places to play Yeah. Where I realized that I was on now a new website, but I was sitting down with the same players from Hollywood poker.

Andrew Pace [00:11:01]:

So I could put myself as one user on Hollywood poker and myself at the same table as another user through this other platform, and I had all my notes overlap from my Hollywood poker days where I was, like, now 2 entities on this on this table, which was total collusion. And I I didn't have the wits then to really take advantage of it. I did I did well in that era, but, I guess what I the reason why I'm saying this is because if you did in fact learn your opponent and their tendencies when it comes to this, I I I do see a potential edge there.

Nigel Eccles [00:11:39]:

There's definitely edge. Oh oh, absolutely. And collusion's definitely something you have to be very careful of. It's been a big challenge for poker. I think it's been a major break for it, and it's something that we recaunched as our new game. So Liar's Po Liar's Dice, you can actually do multiplayer, but the issue is just collusion would be too big. So that's why we focused on 1 on 1, 2 player.

Andrew Pace [00:12:03]:

Right. Well, I mean, there was also, like, a huge wave of collusion on poker tables where people were sending each other money. I don't know how the sports or the casinos handle that, but, I guess it would be like, you know, if you're trying to launder money or whatever, you'd sit down at the table and you dump your money over to another player. Right?

Nigel Eccles [00:12:19]:

Right. Yeah. They're definitely been there's a lot of manager that they money laundering issues is is still something you have to be very cognizant of, so that hasn't really changed. Even within a sportsbook, you know, you can have a user taking the, you know, taking the under, somebody else taking the over, and really they're just laundering. Right? You know, via, like, your from your dirty account to your clean account. There there's ways you can do that.

Andrew Pace [00:12:45]:

Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, at the at the the flip side of that is the casinos getting the fee, and they can't if they can't identify it, then it's just

Nigel Eccles [00:12:53]:

But it still has, like, a responsibility not to that effect.

Andrew Pace [00:12:58]:

I always I've I always found the discussion really interesting in, Las Vegas where you had to deposit to the I don't even remember what this was, but it's like the online craze had begun with with with sportsbooks. And it you know what? It might not be Las Vegas. This might be New Jersey. You had to make your first deposit on the sportsbook in cash. So you had to physically go there. And I thought from, like, a verification standpoint of account, I'm like, well, that's brilliant because I can't, you know, go make 30 accounts with all my buddies. And, yeah, they could all go in, and they could all do it. But it's just another path, like, sort of

Nigel Eccles [00:13:35]:

Yeah. That was actually so, Nevada had it. A couple of other states had it. I'm thinking maybe Connecticut had it. That honestly was was lesser by KYC, and it was more about protectionism, which is the casinos were worried about, like, FanDuel and DraftKings, and they were like, okay. We're gonna make it so that we're gonna have online sports betting, but you have to register in the casino. FanDuel and DraftKings don't have a casino. So, you know, that was really what that was about.

Nigel Eccles [00:14:05]:

What happened then was COVID happened, and and then everyone was like, you know, like, we've gotta open this up. And and so I I'm not sure if any state has that you have to register within the casino anymore.

Andrew Pace [00:14:17]:

Right. Well, I thought it at the time, I thought about it from the standpoint of laundering. I'm like Mhmm. So with the online fiat transactions

Nigel Eccles [00:14:25]:

Mhmm.

Andrew Pace [00:14:26]:

You have traceability to the funds.

Andrew Pace [00:14:28]:

And there's a lot of systems in place where the names have to match and all this other stuff. So that makes things a little bit more difficult.

Andrew Pace [00:14:41]:

Now you're saying, you know, you gotta come in and bring cash. So I'm thinking, like, these guys can just bring in briefcases of cash to fund their account and then pull it out electronically on the other side. And the and the other thing too that changed obviously with the regulation is, like, if you were to do that in an offshore sports book, there'd be all these rollover requirements and things like that. And oftentimes, some of these regulated books, it's like your money is your money. So you could have just pulled it out without without playing and turned cold hard cash from whatever source into sports betting winnings just like that. So I, you know, I thought that was interesting. Anyways, Shane Shane, I'm sure you got something something else to bring up here.

Shane Mercer [00:15:11]:

I mean, there's there's there is so much I wanna get into. It's stuff I wanna I wanna ask Nigel about because, you know, creating and and cofounding and then, you know, sort of steering FanDuel until what about 2018, 2019? Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. I mean and now to see what it's become, I wanna get your thoughts on on what you think how you think FanDuel has shaped the North American market, and and how you think it's going to continue to shape it.

Nigel Eccles [00:15:38]:

Yeah. Well, so I think one of the things that we've thought this from when we started FanDuel in 2009 was the US was the bizarrest outlier in the world. Like, here we had a market that loves sports, that loves sports betting, and it was illegal apart from in one state. Like, it just made no sense. Right? And you had every other sports league in the world figure out how to deal with sports betting, you know, and and accommodate and work with that. And we had, you know, the NFL going, no. It will corrupt the sport and destroy us. And and it just it seemed really anomalous.

Nigel Eccles [00:16:22]:

And we always felt that things are that anomalous ultimately are gonna change. We just didn't know how it was gonna change. I think that DFS, sort of from 2009 to 2018 up until sports became legalized, probably helped normalize. You know, that this was like, hey. This, you know, this is kinda like sports betting and, you know, the the world hasn't ended. The sky hasn't fallen. So I think that should have massively helped. The other thing that I think isn't not that well known is that and when FanDuel and DraftKings ran into huge legal and regulatory issues in 2015 to 2017, shall we say, and we built a national lobbying effort.

Nigel Eccles [00:17:06]:

And so we were in state capitals. We were in Albany, Sacramento, you know, name it. We were there down in Richmond. And what that did was we then built relationships with, with in state legislators, and we built very good relationships. We actually changed the law in 22 states with regards to fantasy sports. That those relationships and that lobbying team was really why we saw such a fast rollout of sports betting post PASPA repeal, post 2018. Wow. Because we had all those relationships.

Nigel Eccles [00:17:41]:

We were really talking to those legislators, and we were going to them. You know, we were coming back the next year and go, hey. Sports betting can now you can legalize sports betting now. You did DFS last year. Now you can do sports betting. You know, let let's do it, and this is gonna be a big big tax driver for your state. And so that, I think, was a big driver that people don't really kinda realize that we built that in, you know, 2015 to 2017.

Shane Mercer [00:18:05]:

Okay. So Makes so much sense. Yeah. It makes a ton of sense, and we've heard a little bit about this from from some of our our previous guests coming on. And now I gotta ask you, how is FanDuel leveraging that infrastructure of relationships now, especially when it comes to working with the regulators?

Nigel Eccles [00:18:21]:

Yeah. So that that was very, very effective at, getting it legal and regulated in those states. I think, you know, once then you're live and you're in those states, it's about the relationship with those regulators. In general, they've been I think they've been pretty smooth. There's generally I think there's, you know, there's a lot of noise at the national level. Like, obviously, national level politics in the US is hugely contentious. It's, you know, it's all about, you know, it's all about about a fight between one side and the other. At a state level, like, it's a lot is about finding compromises.

Nigel Eccles [00:19:04]:

So, you know, when you're lobbying, you're like you know, so I'll give you an example. In New York, we wanted to get a bill through in 2016, legalizing DFS. There was one potential opponent which was an upstate, it's actually based outside Buffalo, Batavia, which had a had race tracks. They were like, well, this could impact on our revenue. And so we did a partnership with them. We're like, hey. Why don't we work together? Like, we can do events. We can do a deal.

Nigel Eccles [00:19:36]:

So we got those guys on board. And and, you know, that was kinda just an example of how we work together. You know, with the government, what you're doing is saying, okay. What are you worried about? Well, we're worried about, problem gambling. Well, let's agree to a framework for problem gambling. Okay. What else are you worried about? Well, you know, how is the tax revenues gonna be used? You know, that's something else you work with them on. So so it's kinda at a state level.

Nigel Eccles [00:20:01]:

There's a lot of that, a lot of discussions, a lot of finding out what people's issues are and trying to, like, as an industry, work with them. I think, in general, it's been very successful. I'd say the only areas where you can see well, the 2 areas I'd say the biggest concerns in the industry are, I'd say number 1, areas like New York with very high tax rates, like 51% tax is is pretty punitive. Mhmm. And then number 2, while sports betting has been phenomenally successful, I think we're soft in, like, 40 states, a casino has been very slow. So I think we're only, like, 6 or 7 states have online casino. And it's just a lot harder to get casino legislation through. Like, there isn't you know, you it's not necessarily a vote winner.

Nigel Eccles [00:20:44]:

Like, people want sports betting. People will vote for it. We saw that in Missouri. Casino just doesn't get people excited. The operators want it because it's very profitable, but it's harder to get voters enthused about it.

Andrew Pace [00:20:58]:

Interesting.

Shane Mercer [00:20:58]:

Yeah. And I, you know, I think, you know, we could probably relate to that in a lot of ways where, you know, Pace and I and a lot of our audience are very interested in sports betting, not so interested in in casino gaming and that kind of thing. I've gotta ask you. Have you been paying attention to the Massachusetts Gaming Commission and what they're doing with, the practice of limited and digging into limiting at the individual level?

Nigel Eccles [00:21:20]:

I have. Yes. And and also in the UK as well where, it sort of feels like this, practice originated. Yeah. So you're very, very familiar with limiting.

Shane Mercer [00:21:30]:

Oh, were you limited at FanDuel?

Nigel Eccles [00:21:31]:

I personally have been limited, so I have personal experience on this.

Nigel Eccles [00:21:37]:

I was limited, by Betfair in the UK. Oh. What? Which was stunning because the the couple of things. 1, I'm pretty I'm pretty certain I'm not a profitable I'm not a, EV positive customer there. I just deposited. I was betting the Grand National, which is, like, it's, like, 10 times bigger than the Kentucky Derby. It's, like, the biggest horse race, you know, in the UK, and I was trying to put down a £500 bet. Like, it wasn't a huge bet.

Nigel Eccles [00:22:04]:

So I'm, like, wow, they're limiting me. They're really coming down the the list of people they're limiting. So, yes, I'm very familiar with it.

Shane Mercer [00:22:11]:

Okay. Well Okay. That that's great. So, you know, we there was a great there or there was a big, meeting that took place a couple of months ago, and I just wanna sort of give you a sense of of how FanDuel, and the representatives from FanDuel characterized winning sports bettors. They they basically said, you know, that winning bettors are, they're they're courtsiding. They're cheating. They're working with nefarious groups that there is a and they they can you know, it is a very, very, very tiny fraction of people who are winning sports bettors, and that fraction of people are in some way, cheated or gaming the system or are just bad actors.

Shane Mercer [00:22:53]:

We're bad people. That's that's essentially what they said.

Nigel Eccles [00:22:58]:

Yeah. And that that doesn't surprise me at all, because, like, here's the thing about the industry. They in my view, the issue is not merely limiting. I know that is the, you know, part of the issue. The the issue is that I feel the operator should be sued for misadvertising. And now let me explain this. They advertise that here's a product that you can win on.

Shane Mercer [00:23:28]:

Right. Yep.

Nigel Eccles [00:23:29]:

We know that if you do win on it, they will stop you. So you can't win on these products. Right? You can't win because they will limit you. And so I feel that they're actually being highly, misleading in their advertising. They really what they want is they want you to think you can win, but you can't. And and that to me feels, you know, I I don't I don't that that to me, I wouldn't wouldn't be comfortable with that. I I think that's, you know, that's definitely you know, it's misleading, and that's kinda the the issue. The problem for the industry is that it is more profitable for them to invest, to there's 2 ways you can go about.

Nigel Eccles [00:24:14]:

You can either a lot of people outside the industry think that these sportsbooks have got incredibly deep and, complex, risk management models, and they have incredible insight into what's happening and who you know, what the true price is and everything. And every time I've talked people through what really goes on, they're always, like, stunned. Like, it's usually people from, like, Wall Street. They're like, oh, you must have those credible risk management models. And I'm like, the risk management models in a lot of these books is a 50 year old guy with a stubby pencil going, well, what what's Pinnacle doing? We're we're we're a couple points off. Right? Like, so and so how does how does it work? They don't have that sophisticated model. The way it works is you limit the winners. And if you limit the winners, you can't lose.

Nigel Eccles [00:25:06]:

And that's kind of my issue with the industry is that they market it itself as something you can win when you cannot, and they're instead of taking a strategy which is, actually, we're gonna take these on, and there's other markets where bookies do take on the sharp money, but the US is not one. And so the US, in effect, markets itself as if it's sports betting, but, really, it's casino. Right.

Shane Mercer [00:25:30]:

And and you think and you think that they're misleading. You you clearly said that that you believe that they're that they're completely misleading the public with with their advertising in that sense. Did you ever think that that's what it would become, you know, this this company that you cofounded?

Nigel Eccles [00:25:45]:

Yes. Like, you know, like, like, you know, me.

Nigel Eccles [00:25:51]:

Look. Like, at scale, it's just very hard. Right? Like, that you know, this is that is the most profitable strategy. And unless someone's gonna force them not to follow that strategy, they're going to follow that strategy.

Andrew Pace [00:26:05]:

Right. Yeah. So with your rule role with FanDuel, obviously, you know, your your tenure

Nigel Eccles [00:26:12]:

Mhmm.

Andrew Pace [00:26:12]:

Nigel, I'm not sure if you're still involved.

Nigel Eccles [00:26:14]:

No. No. I've I'd left, like, 6, 7 years ago, more than that.

Andrew Pace [00:26:18]:

Right. So your your tenure more or less ended

Nigel Eccles [00:26:20]:

7 years ago.

Andrew Pace [00:26:21]:

At the time of legalization in New Jersey.

Nigel Eccles [00:26:24]:

Mhmm.

Andrew Pace [00:26:25]:

So were you involved in the sportsbook at all?

Nigel Eccles [00:26:28]:

I've I've I left, very end of 2017. The first sportsbook was launched summer of 2018.

Andrew Pace [00:26:34]:

But but obviously, you you were you were there and you knew it was coming and and, you know, obviously, what you're referencing with the legislation and all that laying the framework and all that. Interesting. Interesting. And I mean, at that time, like, was FanDuel did they have a sportsbook product that we just hadn't seen yet?

Nigel Eccles [00:26:50]:

No. No. Because it wasn't legal at that point. Like, PASPA got repealed and I think it's something

Andrew Pace [00:26:56]:

I guess, I mean, like, you know, if you go to BetHog right now, it says BetHog beta. Like, was there a FanDuel Beta before there was a sportsbooks.

Nigel Eccles [00:27:04]:

No, because before PASPA, there was no state in which we could have operated then, so there would be and before that decision, it would have been very hard like, it wouldn't have made sense to develop a product that you couldn't sell.

Andrew Pace [00:27:18]:

Right. Right. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:27:21]:

I I wanna ask you. You know, what does a fair playing field look like to you when it comes to this space?

Nigel Eccles [00:27:32]:

Fare is kind of a loaded term. Like, I can talk about other markets. Like, if you look at, for example, the Indian market no. The Indian market's offshore, but because India doesn't have KYC, there's no limiting. There's no way to limit, right, because you don't know where that money is coming from. And so that market and a lot of that market goes through exchanges, So Betfair being the sort of the major one. That is a market that takes sharp money, takes retail, kinda gets mixed together. It operates in pretty low margin, but it's generally pretty successful for all, like, participants.

Nigel Eccles [00:28:13]:

Like, Bedford does well in it. The brokers do well on it. The Sharp Bettors do well on it. It's not it wouldn't be as profitable or nearly as profitable as it would be if you had a let's call it the casino model, which is you limit the winners and you just take the losers. Like, you could say that's fairer to all the participants, but it's, you know, it's it's different.

Andrew Pace [00:28:42]:

Yeah. Cool. So let let's let's talk about BetHog, the sports product then. Because you guys are launching a sportsbook or you have launched a sportsbook?

Nigel Eccles [00:28:50]:

So we've we've, so we're casino first. You know? Our focus there, like, there are 100 or thousands of, crypto sportsbooks out there. We're not aiming the aim for a sportsbook today is to be a companion to the casino product. So people are on the casino product. They wanna place a bet. They don't have to go somewhere else. Their money's with us. That's that's where it is.

Nigel Eccles [00:29:17]:

So and it's very much focused on the retail side. It's not it's we're not focused on having the best prices, and we probably won't. We almost certainly won't. Yeah. But so so there's just no way we're aiming for, and we basically market it like, we're marketing casino first. 1st.

Andrew Pace [00:29:33]:

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So, from a sportsbook standpoint, though, if you have a product Mhmm. FanDuel was known as as or is known as a sportsbook that's independent from, other lines. Like, you know, you jump over to BetRivers and and Unibet and all these are all running on the Canby Odds provider.

Andrew Pace [00:29:53]:

You know, you jump over to MGM, and they're sharing you know, here in Canada, we have sports interaction and, Bee Win. They're all using those MGM lines. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:30:03]:

Or as a scientific gaming, I should say. I shouldn't say MGM lines. So are you guys, using your own odds provider? Have you brought someone on for that kind of stuff? How does that

Nigel Eccles [00:30:14]:

So BetHog is a small team. We're a 10 person team. The Sportsbook, pretty much all of it is handled through a third party provider.

Andrew Pace [00:30:23]:

Okay. Okay.

Nigel Eccles [00:30:23]:

Their own front end, and that's something that we wanna do more work on because we think we can actually make that experience better. But odds, risk management, all of that is handled by a third party.

Andrew Pace [00:30:35]:

So, you know, what's interesting about this discussion is so we we threw an event in Vancouver, with a a company called UBET. And, the the CEO of the company and I have have kinda shot the shit together a few times. And, I told him that he was gonna limit my account. And he he was like, well, what he he's is a great marketing guy, and that's why they brought him on. And his sports book knowledge, I would say, is is in the the learning stages. Let's look from that. We should all always be learning, but he's definitely in learning stages. And he did the whole, like and to give you an example, he text me one time saying, can you please let me know how a parlay works? Right? Like, mathematically speaking.

Andrew Pace [00:31:13]:

So but like that you know? And great guy. Like, I am not talking shit. Great guy. Like, really fun, awesome, great guy. So I explained the limiting process, and he's like, no. No. No. Like, we're we're not gonna do that.

Andrew Pace [00:31:24]:

And I kinda chuckled. Right? So sure enough, I sent him off. Like, hey. I can only bet, like, 15, $20 on your site now. And he actually had them reversed for me for a a very short period of time, and then they said, no. This this guy's this guy's winning too much money. Now what's crazy about the discussion is he gen I know he genuinely tried to override the trading team's decision, and they've they said no. Now how will your relationship be in a similar situation with your trading team given the discussion that we just had? Will a winning player be able to play at BetHawk?

Nigel Eccles [00:31:58]:

Well, the difference is I gotta tell you right now we're limited. That's it. That's it. So you should be though.

Andrew Pace [00:32:08]:

It's like, I know you said casino first, but, like, how do you solve this problem?

Nigel Eccles [00:32:14]:

Betdex. You should bet on Betdex. Betdex is a betting exchange. It'll never limit users. You'll get better pricing. You're not paying any commission. Like, that's what we built Betdex for. Right.

Nigel Eccles [00:32:25]:

And so I I just you know, for the audience, I started Betdex in 2021. We launched it about 2 years ago. That's what it's for. It's for sharps. It's for everyone. No one's getting limited.

Shane Mercer [00:32:37]:

Okay. Although I I love that you just pivoted right over to that because, hey, you've you're saying, look. There's one there's one way to operate over here. Right? And this is that's what this is that business model, and that's what it's gonna be. And you're open and honest about it. I love that.

Nigel Eccles [00:32:50]:

I love that.

Shane Mercer [00:32:50]:

And and then here's another model that we're also you know, that you're also involved in, and and that is made for you guys, Pace and Shane, and and all of our audience out there. So tell me then about the exchange because our experience, I think, on exchanges, you know, while while we have had some some great ones and we've worked with with some great ones, you know, there's still some issues when it comes to exchanges. One is liquidity, and especially for for what PACE and I do in a large portion of our community is we focus on live in play wagering, which right now, finding an exchange with significant liquidity

Shane Mercer [00:33:29]:

In an in play market is, like, damn near impossible.

Nigel Eccles [00:33:32]:

Yeah. It's hard.

Shane Mercer [00:33:33]:

Yeah. What what would we find at at at Betdex? Would it be a similar experience?

Nigel Eccles [00:33:38]:

Yeah. So, like, I don't wanna overpromise. Betex is still very much work in progress on it. So Betex is built directly on Solana. Yeah. So it's actually built on a blockchain, which means that it's slower than if it was built on a, you know, AWS server. That makes it harder to be a market maker on it because you're gonna have stale prices. Right? You're gonna be like instead of going out at microseconds, it's like taking a few seconds.

Nigel Eccles [00:34:06]:

That's problematic. Particularly depending on the sport. So cricket's easier than soccer, for example. Right. It's I I it's constantly changing. Like, we're bringing on more and more market makers. We're bringing on more and more, volume. So I'd say that, you know, cricket is somewhere we're better at.

Nigel Eccles [00:34:27]:

Soccer is something we're moving on. US sports is is sort of still coming

Shane Mercer [00:34:31]:

Okay.

Nigel Eccles [00:34:32]:

In terms of a good liquidity in play.

Andrew Pace [00:34:36]:

So, Betdex then, is it Fiat or is it it's you said it operates on Solana, but is it Fiat or is it

Nigel Eccles [00:34:43]:

So, basically, well, as of it should be either this or next week, you can come in, you can deposit. So today, you can deposit with Solana or Fiat. Okay. As of

Andrew Pace [00:34:54]:

And I can pay in Fiat if I wanted to.

Nigel Eccles [00:34:57]:

It's yeah. It's a stable it's a ineffectively Fiat. It's a stable coin. It's USDC.

Andrew Pace [00:35:02]:

Right. Right. Okay. Okay.

Nigel Eccles [00:35:04]:

As of next week, or this week, it'll be we'll add Bitcoin, Ethereum. You can deposit in any cryptocurrency or Fiat, and then you can play in that but you will be playing in US dollars.

Andrew Pace [00:35:15]:

So from a liquidity standpoint, if I have USDC in and someone's offering the other side of a line in in in Ethereum, do the

Nigel Eccles [00:35:24]:

Everyone's playing in USDC.

Andrew Pace [00:35:27]:

Everyone's playing in USDC. It's all about how you you actually get the money in. Okay. That's smart.

Nigel Eccles [00:35:31]:

Money in and out, you can deposit with whatever cryptocurrency or fiat you want. But then when you're playing, you're playing in US dollars.

Andrew Pace [00:35:39]:

Okay. So one of the things BetHog advertises that, BetDeX, I'm gonna assume, they're both web 3?

Nigel Eccles [00:35:47]:

Yes. In slightly different ways. So BatHawk takes deposits and cryptocurrencies, holds it in those and holds it in those cryptocurrencies. Betdex takes a deposit but then converts it into, in effect, US dollars, and then you're betting in US dollars.

Andrew Pace [00:36:06]:

But is it are they both still web 3 from the standpoint that the wagers being made are are on the blockchain?

Nigel Eccles [00:36:12]:

Yeah. BetHog is not. BetHog is off chain, so which means it's fast. Right? Right. Our DEX today is on chain, which means it's slower than it would otherwise be.

Andrew Pace [00:36:22]:

Right. So I I think about that that you brought that up. And and for I mean, why don't before I ask my next question, why don't you explain as if no one's ever used crypto in in the simplest way possible? What does that what does that mean to be operating on the blockchain or Sure. Yeah.

Nigel Eccles [00:36:39]:

Yeah. Very simply. Simplest way to think of, blockchain is like a big database. You can have a database on Amazon Web Services, which is what BetHog has. So somebody deposits money, all the transactions on BetHog are recorded on our site in our own database. Right? And so that means it's super fast. But it also means that you have to sort of trust us. Right? Because the only record of it that's happening is in our database.

Nigel Eccles [00:37:07]:

Okay? Betdex, what happens is you put money into a wallet on our site, and then all of those bets, you can see on a public database, which is Solana. So you can actually take you can actually just type in a URL, and you can see every transaction. And you can see, oh, the money went from this wallet to this wallet. It went from this. When the bet went to be settled, basically, what happened is this contract settled, and the money went back out to that wallet. So there's a lot you don't have to trust as much. We're doing what we say we're doing.

Andrew Pace [00:37:39]:

Right. So when I place a wager and it's accepted, that money has left my wallet, and it's held in trust.

Nigel Eccles [00:37:48]:

And it's held in another in another contract.

Andrew Pace [00:37:51]:

In in trust.

Nigel Eccles [00:37:53]:

Yeah. Which you can which you can look at on an independent browser independently of that deck. You can see, oh, yeah. There's the money there. It's waiting for, you know, a settlement.

Andrew Pace [00:38:03]:

Right. So it's interesting because that's similar to, obviously, Shane with sXBet. Yeah.

Nigel Eccles [00:38:08]:

Correct.

Andrew Pace [00:38:08]:

And and one of the challenges with sXBet, you already just said. It's the time it takes for a transaction to process. And when you're wagering when you're wagering on a live bet, if the line moves, you know, might take 30 seconds. It might take 45 seconds. When the line moves during that time, the agreement that you originally made is void so that the bet doesn't go through.

Nigel Eccles [00:38:29]:

Right. But Biggest issue is for the market maker because, you know, as they are the ones who are stuck with a price up there. Like, they've put up a price, but that, you know, that could change in seconds, and they can't get it down fast enough before other people have come in and grabbed

Andrew Pace [00:38:45]:

it. Right. Right. So it has to mirror, what another website is doing, which we do see to an extent on on their platform. But the the reason why I said it is because when I saw this, oh, web 3 betting, I got really excited about a different website. And I'm actually not gonna say their name because they they really came across to me as someone that I could not trust. But I feel like they're almost using that sort of web 3 model to make it seem as if it is your money while you're playing with it, but they're holding They you still they they like, with s x, it's your wallet. With deck Betdex, it's your wallet.

Andrew Pace [00:39:21]:

So that's your money. Right? Like, you're not holding my funds. Whereas when that example is being brought up on other sites, I think the user with anything with crypto, the user really has to make sure that they know what they're doing. I myself have lost so much money

Andrew Pace [00:39:40]:

Sending it into the abyss or whatever it is. Losing my keys, like, the dumbest shit. Right? When and to an extent, you have to go through some of the stuff to learn. Mhmm. But as a user entering the space, which already has a barrier to entry, this isn't some simple thing for people where they're like, oh, I'm sending, I'm just you know, here's my credit card. Take my money. In fact, most credit cards and banks will block these types of transactions because of the amount of scams associated with them.

Shane Mercer [00:40:04]:

I agree.

Andrew Pace [00:40:04]:

So there really is a barrier to entry here. Now when you cross over the barrier, no you have to be the person that takes care of, of your funds and who you're playing on, And don't let this web 3 discussion be something that increases trust because people are using it to actually scam you or to hold your funds. Right? So it I I think what you're doing there with Betdex is great because that takes takes what I set out of the equation.

Nigel Eccles [00:40:31]:

So there was and this is a sort of a 2021 sort of holy grail that this do it in crypto, we talk about trustlessness. So you could basically, from your wallet wallet, go bet on something else, and it would be all in code. There is no way that a third party could you you didn't have to trust them because you could read it all and you could it's all in code. What we discovered over the last couple of years is, yes, that is possible. But the user experience is so bad, right, that that no one wants to use it. Right? And and and that's number 1. Number 2 is people are kind of more willing to trust these things and but they're no. Put this better.

Nigel Eccles [00:41:15]:

People are not willing to make the trade off of, you know, of user experience in order to move to something that's totally trustless. Right? Like, they're not willing to go, yeah, every time I place a bet, I have to click 5 buttons, and I have to, like, deal with this really janky web experience. That's if you want full web 3 decentralization, that's what you have to put up with. And what we discovered was no one wants to put up with it. And so actually what or what and this is what BetHog does is we use crypto for deposits and withdrawals. But we don't use it for anything that happens on the site because, to be honest, people just kind of trust us. Right? And we say that you trust us, but they're, like, they trust us, and they don't want the shitty experience of having to click 5 buttons every time they place a bat, like, every time.

Andrew Pace [00:42:07]:

Right. And and, I mean, separately of trust, that's where I mean, we've talked about legislature and things like that in the United States, but that's where, you know, you're you hope that whoever is licensing these offshore crypto sportsbooks is a source of of trust. And quite honestly, they they aren't. They aren't. Yeah. So you do have to trust the brand.

Nigel Eccles [00:42:28]:

It's I think I think a lot like like in any market, a lot comes to brand. Like, I, you know, for example, I would trust Steak. You know, I bet on Steak. Like, I I think they're a very reputable company. You know, and there's plenty of others that I would trust. If there's one that sort of pops up and I've never heard of them, and they've got a license from somewhere, like, at, you know, it would take me a while before I would be, like, okay. I I I trust them with my money.

Shane Mercer [00:43:05]:

I'm just gonna say Pace.

Nigel Eccles [00:43:08]:

Yeah. Like like, you know, you gotta verify.

Shane Mercer [00:43:11]:

Well, you know, but when you get limited as often as often as as we do, you know, some you gotta take risks.

Nigel Eccles [00:43:16]:

You take risks.

Andrew Pace [00:43:20]:

Yeah. The money's stolen from me, unfortunately but, you know, so will will BetHog be a reliable source? If our guys do go there and they do get limited? Can they expect to be paid?

Nigel Eccles [00:43:28]:

Oh, they'll definitely pay people. Like, that's Yeah. You know, that that's like a a I think that's sort of a bare minimum. You don't know if they'll I don't think they'll find the best prices, like, to be totally honest.

Andrew Pace [00:43:41]:

Yeah. That's that's fine. You got you guys are doing your thing. You're creating a fun social experience. Hey. Listen. If you don't like it, don't play there. It's that simple.

Andrew Pace [00:43:49]:

Right?

Nigel Eccles [00:43:49]:

I Definitely wouldn't complain. But I they definitely, you know, they definitely should be trying Badtax. That's where they're gonna get good prices. They might not get the depth on liquidity. We Betax has also just launched a broker service, which is if you want a better price and you're not seeing a liquidity, you can basically it's basically DMing them, and they will give you the best price.

Andrew Pace [00:44:10]:

Right. Right. Okay.

Nigel Eccles [00:44:11]:

That's cool. Go to market maker and say, boom. Not, you know, not so much in play, but pregame, they they're actually doing a pretty chunky volume on that. Right. Right.

Andrew Pace [00:44:21]:

Well when you just look at the landscape and everything that we've touched on, something like Betdecks needs to be a major player in in in in the United States. Like, Shane and I are both in Canada. Right? But something needs to break through there to for people to play on. And and I'd I certainly don't have the answer there, but, you know, I my big to be like this.

Nigel Eccles [00:44:49]:

It's been it's been very difficult. One of the challenges in the US is the Wire Act. It's a question of whether sports betting is is crossing state lines, which is still illegal at a federal level. You can bet within the state, but you can't bet between states. And so that's hampered anybody who's tried to launch an exchange in the US. So they'll have, like, a market in New Jersey and then another another one in Colorado, but they can't have 2 people betting with each other between those states.

Andrew Pace [00:45:16]:

Right. And and not to mention Bovada's, like, you know, been basically shut down across the United States. So separately of that, they are really cracking down on the gray market, sportsbooks there.

Nigel Eccles [00:45:27]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:45:27]:

You know? So when you think about, like, what cryptocurrency is as a currency and the fact that I can have, like, this this, you know, little piece of plastic in my pocket and and fly from, you know, Vancouver to China, and I've got my I've got my $1,000,000 in Bitcoin sitting in my pocket still. They're you want this to break through from a sports betting standpoint where a company likes Stake. Like, Stake's a good example. Stake's this big offshore gray market juggernaut, and it's on the freaking rings. Like, you talk about what's legal and isn't legal. But why are they all advertising in California? Why are they all advertising across the United States? But let's say a juggernaut like stake that says that that it has been able to just bypass all this through the use of cryptocurrency. And I feel like they tried. I do feel like they tried.

Andrew Pace [00:46:18]:

They they made it so that if you came and played there, you could do so pretty much anywhere, and they didn't care. But the problem with that model is as soon as it works for a short period of time, you get guys like me that are now on their 6th, 7th, 10th, 20th, 200th account. And they finally go, okay. We'd we're we not only do we need to start verifying accounts, we're gonna start doing blood samples along with the verification.

Andrew Pace [00:46:50]:

Right? Because we need the actual DNA of this human being and every every single thing about them. They sent me an email, and it said, hey, dude. Like, here's your 16 accounts. Right? And this is the thing is, like, I I was a learning experience for me. This is years years years ago. And they're like, we we see the IP overlap. Like, we know this is all you. They paid me and everything, and they just said you just gotta stop.

Andrew Pace [00:47:14]:

And it like I said, it was a learning lesson for me where now I never do that anymore. Yeah. Because I know I'm actually not gonna get paid by most of these sportsbooks.

Nigel Eccles [00:47:21]:

Yeah. A lot of these sites. That's correct.

Andrew Pace [00:47:23]:

Right? So then when I talk about, like, oh, it'd be great for this sort of breakthrough. So, you know, something like Betdecks to become this sort of juggernaut in the in the sort of offshore gray market space. The flip side to it all is then how do you deal with someone like me in in a way that is responsible and productive? And and and the and the the goal for me would be, well, just let me have my one account. Give me a fair limit that it that is reasonable. You know, if if I go down to the street and I'm like,

Andrew Pace [00:47:53]:

oh, they won't let me bet $10,000, people are people are gonna laugh at me. Like, who's this privileged, you know, loser talking about? But if it's if it's $500 and they go, okay. That's the number. Whatever it is. And it seems fair to the average person. If if that system arrives or or, you know, exists, that's where as a player, you can go, okay. This is awesome. I have this.

Andrew Pace [00:48:10]:

Like, I have this crutch.

Nigel Eccles [00:48:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I do think betting betting exchanges, like, Betdex is the best way to service customers like that. Like,

Andrew Pace [00:48:21]:

If the liquidity increases. Yes.

Shane Mercer [00:48:23]:

Yeah. It's gotta have the liquidity in the markets.

Nigel Eccles [00:48:26]:

Yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:48:26]:

Yeah. So how do we how do we help? We have to go play there.

Nigel Eccles [00:48:30]:

Go play there. Yeah. You gotta

Andrew Pace [00:48:33]:

Go play at the exchanges. We that's what that's what that's what that's what will help them. Right?

Nigel Eccles [00:48:36]:

Yeah.

Shane Mercer [00:48:37]:

Nigel, I got one last question for you, but before we let you go and you've been very gracious with your time with us, so thank you for that. But I I wanna just get your your 2¢ on something that I saw today. It was actually posted in our Discord group, by one of our members, and I thought, oh, this is fascinating, and it's, you know, something I can put to you. It's a Rolling Stone article that came out, today or I think over the weekend. Headline, is the $11,000,000,000 online sportsbook bubble about to burst? That's the headline. They sort of go through the article and kind of say maybe. I wanna know what do you think about it about that.

Nigel Eccles [00:49:13]:

Did they have any analysis to why they thought it might?

Shane Mercer [00:49:15]:

Oh ya

Andrew Pace [00:49:16]:

It's a lengthy article.

Shane Mercer [00:49:17]:

Very long article. There's a lot in it, but, they they do have, you know, a whole bunch of reasons limiting and and, you know, abilities for sharp betters to continue to pump liquidity in was one issue, especially with some of these, some of the softer books. They they sort of, you know, got into the whole, race to market and how, you know, a whole bunch of sportsbooks are now dominating the market, which, you know, we know who they are, and you helped found one of them. You know? So, you know, the but and now all of those sort of, tertiary players, you know, the the people that are in the there are the companies that are in the 5th, 6th, 7th spots, you know, in terms of market are just, like, exiting. They're leaving. They're out of here. You know? So what do you think when when somebody poses that question?

Nigel Eccles [00:50:03]:

Like, in a word, no. Okay. But it's you know, we're still early on this, Mark. I sometimes I hear an argument from people which is, like, surely if people are losing money, they'll stop. And I always show them a picture of Las Vegas. Yeah. That's true.

Nigel Eccles [00:50:22]:

Right? Like so, no. This is an entertainment product. What I will say is it this is gonna burst for a lot of players that are not fond of doing DraftKings, and probably MGM as well. Those sort of tertiary players should never have entered the market. They were late, with weak products and, you know, worse pricing. So, you know, the like, Fanatics, ESPN that like, these are not credible long term players, and they never were. It was obvious when they launched that they had missed the opportunity.

Nigel Eccles [00:50:58]:

I think some of them will continue to do okay in casino. They're actually do quite well in casino. But in terms of sports betting, this is a 3, at most, a 3 player, really a 2 player market. Like and it's gonna continue to grow. You know, we we have new markets coming online. Even old markets, like, even like New Jersey, I think it grew something, like, 20 to 30% last year. Like so that's a state where we've had sports betting for 6 years. It's not a new thing, and it's still growing strongly.

Andrew Pace [00:51:29]:

Well the article actually referenced it. 27 operators, when they launched, and they're down down to 13.

Nigel Eccles [00:51:35]:

In the future. And they're seeing they're gonna be seeing down to, like, 4. Yeah. Wow. But the market will grow in that period. Right? Right. We get to I remember, like, those 27 operators, like, US Bats and, like, you just drove down the freeway in New Jersey, and you're like, I I just couldn't believe how stupid some people were thinking this was gonna be this enormous money pot. It's like, no.

Nigel Eccles [00:51:57]:

Like, by that point, FanDuel and DraftKings had boast bested 100 and, like, half a $1,000,000,000 or $1,000,000,000 in building their position. You know, you're turning up at a gunfight with, like, a a pea shooter going, hey. We want our share. It's like, you know ESPN, if they had launched in 2018, 2019

Andrew Pace [00:52:17]:

They had the funds.

Nigel Eccles [00:52:18]:

They could had

Andrew Pace [00:52:19]:

They had more funds.

Nigel Eccles [00:52:21]:

Yeah. They could've been a big player if they launched earlier, but they decided to pick a bad product with weak marketing, which was pan. And, you know, they launched way too late. You know, if if ESPN had partnered with, say, something like BAT 365, that would have been a national player. But they decided that Pan was more desperate and more willing to give them the money, and that's why they went with Pan. So, and that's why we have 2 operators.

Andrew Pace [00:52:48]:

Crazy.

Shane Mercer [00:52:49]:

Yeah. And a great conversation with you, Nigel. Really enjoyed this fascinating stuff. I'd love to have you back on the show at some point in the future. Best of luck to you at BetHog and to at BetDEX. Really, you know, hoping for success with Betdecks. Absolutely. That's something that I think Payson and I would love to see grow.

Shane Mercer [00:53:06]:

And, yeah, just a a fantastic conversation. I I think this has been great for me, for Payson, for our entire audience. So thank you for for giving your time to us.

Nigel Eccles [00:53:14]:

No problem. Thank you.

Shane Mercer [00:53:20]:

Alright. That was Nigel Eccles. What a fascinating conversation with the cofounder of FanDuel. Unbelievable. Alright. But now it is time for the grid iron grind. This time, no go, Sue. Pace, just me and you grinding it out here on the football week ahead.

Andrew Pace [00:53:36]:

If if I'm sitting here right now and I'm I'm listening and and you hear Pace and Shane are gonna grind out some pregame for for the people listening. I'd say

Shane Mercer [00:53:48]:

What are we doing here?

Andrew Pace [00:53:49]:

Hang up or fade? Hang up or fade. John John Wilson. I mean, this guy, he's just a notorious sleeper. So He's a can't wake up on time. It's I think it's 2 o'clock where he is right now. He's not awake. So we're just we're just pushing forward without

Andrew Pace [00:54:05]:

him here, Shane. We're moving on. So and I I think that no matter what I bring up, John would be on the opposite side here. So I'm probably not gonna bet any of these things. For college football, we saw, Tennessee go down to Georgia last week. So, Georgia kept their hopes alive for the playoffs. Just was a really exciting game, and I felt like Georgia kinda showed us that they're still hanging around, as bad as we've kinda seen them look this this, this season. But there's really just one game that everyone in the world is gonna be talking about, come this Saturday.

Andrew Pace [00:54:37]:

It's in the early slate, and you can guess it before I I even say it. Indiana, the who, who, who's yours, are taking on, the Ohio State, which is just the most electric game this year that no one thought would be the most electric game this year because Indiana for the first time in program history is 10 and o. They're coming off of a buy. They're ranked 5th, I believe. And, yeah, taking taking on the Ohio State, on the road, but they're plus 13, and they're undefeated. And they've shown us that they can hang with really anyone. So, I won't be betting this pregame, but I'm really excited excited to bet this live. And if I had a gun to my head pregame, I'd be on the Hoosiers because 13 points in a competitive football game is absolutely insane.

Andrew Pace [00:55:29]:

It's also the real test for them where if they hang with them, right, and they lose the game, but they hang with them, people know they're for real. If they win this game, India the Indiana Hoosiers are a freaking threat to win this whole thing this year, which is insane. The the most out of left field team of the year, and I'm I'm here for it.

Shane Mercer [00:55:51]:

What's the Buckeyes record?

Andrew Pace [00:55:53]:

9 and 1. They lost to the Ducks, and they're lost to the Ducks. If anyone watched that game, they beat the Ducks without just finishing the game. It was like watching Right. Any of the Bengals games this season. It's like they won, but they don't get the win.

Shane Mercer [00:56:07]:

They did not get the w. Okay. Got it.

Andrew Pace [00:56:11]:

Okay. Week 12 in the NFL, you know, things are really shaping up, from a division standpoint. You know, we we've got some some some juggernauts that have really proven that, you know, they're they're here they're here to stay. You know, the Buffalo Bills look incredible. The the division is theirs. The Houston Texans, they haven't won the division yet, but they look like they will run away with that division. The Kansas City Chiefs, they haven't won the division yet. The chargers are actually nipping on their heels, but, you know, I I think they're gonna take care of the division and obviously be a a Super Bowl threat.

Andrew Pace [00:56:42]:

The Eagles took down the Commandos. Eagles are looking like they're back to form. They really do. I fucking agree with Coach

Shane Mercer [00:56:48]:

Especially on the defense side. The defensive side looks incredible.

Andrew Pace [00:56:51]:

Yeah. And the Commandos are there still. They're still nipping on their heels. They haven't done it yet. But, I mean, these Detroit Lions, they just they look insane. Your Vikings are nipping on their heels, but I I think the Lions are gonna take care of things there. And then there's there's 2 just divisions that seem like they're underperforming. They're wide open.

Andrew Pace [00:57:08]:

We got the Falcons leading the division with the Bucks at 46 still able to catch them. The Bucks have a really difficult schedule they have all season. So that that division's kind of, still up for grabs, I would say. Many of them are that I just referenced, but it just kinda feels as though those teams are are gonna take care of business. And then the NFC West is shocking. The niners are in last place at 5 and 5. The Rams are in 2nd place at 5 and 5, and the cardinals are leading that division on an island at 6 and 4, which the cardinals would have paid a fortune. They would have been the least likely of the 4 teams, to be leading the division.

Andrew Pace [00:57:45]:

But what that makes for in divisions where we have the Ravens and the Steelers, in divisions where we have the Bucks and the Falcons, in the divisions where we have every team like the Rams, Seahawks, Niners, Cards competing is for some great competitive football down the stretch here. So, going through the menu this week, there's a couple of standout games to me, and I'm kinda gonna reference some of the things that John said. The Steelers continue to be underpriced. They're minus 3 in Cleveland, and the total's 36a half. So this to me screams trap game because I love the Steelers. If I love a game this much, I'd fucking run and hide from it. I don't bet pregame. The only thing I bet pregame are teasers.

Andrew Pace [00:58:27]:

So I won't be betting this, but that's Steelers minus 3. I cannot believe that that's the line. If I was a pregame veteran, if I was good at it, I would bet that. So I would probably bet the Browns in that game after I just gave that

Shane Mercer [00:58:38]:

whole steal. Interesting point on that game too is, like, you know, not giving the Steelers enough credit. You know, the over under opened at 42a half, and I see it's moved all the way down to 36. Must be weather. Maybe. Yeah. You know, Cleveland, you know, probably getting cooler for sure. I don't know what's in the forecast.

Shane Mercer [00:58:53]:

You know? I'd I have to have to take a look at that. But 36, it feels like, potentially, the the Steelers could go and put up 36 on their own against this Cleveland team.

Andrew Pace [00:59:02]:

Yeah. And and Cleveland stunk last week. Like, they look awful. Awful. Awful. Awful. Guys, so from a teaser standpoint, there's a lot that don't fit the bill, and, we finally broke our streak. We went 3 of 5 on our calls last week.

Andrew Pace [00:59:16]:

So if you were selective or if you made a bunch of different combos, you would be breakeven at best. But, yeah, it happens. And, also, the 2 picks that lost, you've got the niners up 3 up sorry. The niners up 4 with the ball with 2 and a half minutes left where if they just pick up a first down, the game's gonna be over more or less. And they're throwing the ball. They're not running the ball. They're playing like absolute idiots. Just just terrible football.

Andrew Pace [00:59:41]:

And then you got you got the Chiefs down too, where if the Bills pick up a first down, the game's over. They score a touchdown. The Chiefs can still come back and cover. But those were great spots for teasers. Just because just because something doesn't win doesn't mean you didn't do the right thing, and that's always an important message. So no brainer Houston at home minus 7a half. You you wanna tease them down to to 1a half. I hate teasing games on the road, but I think Detroit fits the bill.

Andrew Pace [01:00:06]:

So that one interests me. The Browns at home would be a spot that makes so much sense to tease them up to plus 9a half or plus 9, with that low total, but there is no way I am touching that one. Miami also makes sense. I I think they're a dumpster fire of a team right now, and I think the patriots are a little bit better than what we think. So I'd stay away from that one. Yeah. And just going down the list, you know, the Broncos fits the bill for a minus, but I don't like road teams, and there's just something about Denver that I can never never really end up being sold on. So the third one that I like, when all is said and done here is gonna be the niners at plus 8 or plus 8a half Right.

Andrew Pace [01:00:46]:

Against Green Bay. Yeah. Yeah. And and to be honest, in these previous weeks, I've looked at stuff where I'm like, oh my god. I just love this game for a teaser. And and with all of the ones I just mentioned, I don't love any of them, but, they fit the bill, and I'll probably string those 3 together, just for, you know, a recreational bet. So it'd be Lions, Texans, and, and Niners there. Anything, anything you you see in there, Shane?

Shane Mercer [01:01:09]:

No. You know, just, wanna just mention the the the cardinals at Seattle. That's gonna you know, like, I can't wait to watch that game, and I never thought I might I might say that. But, you know, I think we're gonna get a great football game there. And and the cardinals are playing great ball. So, well, I I I like that game a lot, but it looks like it's a basically a pick them at this point.

Andrew Pace [01:01:28]:

Yeah. And if if the line moves and you could get 7a half on either side, so if someone goes to minus 1a half, that would be something that I would I would definitely be interested, in slapping on a teaser.

Shane Mercer [01:01:39]:

The only other thing I wanna mention too is, we also referenced the the race in the NFC South. Bucks and and Falcons kinda, you know, battling it out. The Bucks have got themselves what should be a pretty easy matchup on the road facing the Giants. The Giants just announced that they benched Danny Dimes. So, they're going with Tommy DeVito in that one. Oh, jeez.

Shane Mercer [01:02:01]:

I don't think the spread is too bad. I see I see it at 5 right now. So, you know, if you could just get that down to, like, a a pick, I I think that that might be a spot. So Oh, wow.

Andrew Pace [01:02:09]:

Shane's first, first teaser teaser leg there. Guys, there is one other game that is, like, a 10 out of 10 for, the, I guess, the math and the numbers. Another really low total, and that would be the bears at home. I'm just the bears looked really good last week. They looked really good, and I'm just not buying it. There's certain games where I go, I'm just not betting on the Chicago Bears, you know, Patriots. I'm like, I'm not betting for them or against them. There there there's things as a bad pregame better that I have that I do that you should probably ignore.

Andrew Pace [01:02:43]:

But that one from a teaser standpoint makes a lot of sense based on based on the numbers for sure.

Shane Mercer [01:02:48]:

Cool. Alright. Well, if you are gonna bet anything pregame, Pinnacle Sportsbook is the place to do it. You're gonna get the very best lines. Absolutely better vague than anywhere else you you'll find. That is the place to do it. Head to pinnacle.com/inplaylive. If you're not signed up, that's the place to go and sign up.

Shane Mercer [01:03:07]:

You definitely wanna go through that, pace. I've gotta say, the landing page there looks sick. Like, you gotta go check it out just for that reason.

Andrew Pace [01:03:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting, though, about the Pinnacle discussion, and this is this is the thing. Right? Pinnacle's a sharp sportsbook. Let's let's let's call spade a spade. They're they're a top sportsbook to beat.

Shane Mercer [01:03:25]:

They're they're probably the sharpest sportsbook in the world.

Andrew Pace [01:03:28]:

Yeah. I got a text from Randy, this morning, and he said crazy week. And, you know, it's a crazy week when I've been middle into Pinnacle, and my Pinnacle balance is up, and all my softbooks balances are down. And it's actually a really good message to to people because we did have a tough week at inplayLIVE. A really, really a really fucking tough week. One of those ones that's hard to get through. When you have a book that's sharp like this that can help you through identifying which lines are soft and which aren't. And this isn't just pregame.

Andrew Pace [01:03:59]:

This is live betting. Like, Pinnacle has timeouts, breaks, all that kind of stuff. Tremendous live bets that actually I believe are beatable as well when you pick your spots. If you're taking let's put it this way. If there's a call made at ininplayLIVE and you're taking your bet at Pinnacle, that's probably not the best. But if you pick your spots there, you can win separately of that. Because of them being so sharp and trusting who they are in the industry, they're okay offering middles and arbs at certain times. Oh, yeah.

Andrew Pace [01:04:30]:

Welcome you to do that against them. Now when you have a tough week and you have a book like this with all your soft books, you can just print money, and it doesn't matter which side wins or loses. Right? So to the example of the text I just got, it's more likely that all of your MGMs and FanDuels and Crypto books and whatever are gonna be the side that are up against Pinnacle in any given week. But when you derisk and your Pinnacle side is the side that's up, you still didn't have a bad week. So it's it is really important to sign up there and to use their lines.

Shane Mercer [01:05:03]:

And just on that topic, another big benefit is that let's say, your Pinnacle account has gone up, you know, and and you've sort of lost money on some of your softbooks. You can go take that money out of Pinnacle. No problem. No hassle. Don't have to worry about getting limited. Just go pull it out. Disperse it how you need to after that. You know? Whereas, you know, if it's a soft book and that accounts up, you're like, oh, do I pull this? Do I not pull it? Am I gonna get limited if I pull it? You don't have to worry about that shit at Pinnacle.

Andrew Pace [01:05:30]:

Right. And one of the things too from from my standpoint, so when I've when I play if I'm playing a bookmaker or Pinnacle or where wherever some of these books are that don't limit you, everyone does their own thing. They have their own decisions and how they handle their bankroll. But what I typically do is I'll do, you know, a 2 to $3,000 deposit. I wager there. If I lose, I lose. If I win, I typically can go on a pretty good run, you know, 20, 30000. But in past time, because they are sharp, I've had it where I've gone up to 70, a 100000.

Andrew Pace [01:05:59]:

And I've potentially lost it, or lost a bunch of it and then withdrawn the balance. So now what I do, because I know that a withdraw isn't gonna get my account under review is if I run it up to 20,000, I just pull it, drop it back down to 5. So 20 to 5, 20 to 5, 20 to 5. And then I lose the 5, the 5 goes, and I restart the process. Yeah. And I think that that's a good way to handle really sharp sportsbooks.

Shane Mercer [01:06:21]:

Yeah. Love that advice. Great stuff there. Alright, Pace. Well, great great week. Great episode. I loved having Nigel on, and, always fun to do the grind even if Gosuit isn't here. So a lot of fun there.

Shane Mercer [01:06:32]:

But, again, that's pinnacle.comforward/nplaylive. Alright. Pace to you, to all the sports betters around the world till next week. Keep beating those.

Andrew Pace [01:06:41]:

Cheers, buddy.

Shane Mercer [01:06:41]:

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code BEHINDTHELINES.